Why weren't moon clips & the revolvers that used them more popular with police?

[ryan3465]

Hello all!!

Thanks for the great responses on the Handgun myths rumors and urban legends question I posted a few weeks ago. I have a quick question though regarding mid 1900s police revolvers. I know that .38 Special and other rimmed revolver rounds were the standard police sidearm, but my question is why weren't .45 ACP revolvers using moon clips more popular with police in the 1920's and beyond? It would seem that moon clips would afford a faster reload especially in the days before speed loaders like we know today. I couldn't find a particular reason anywhere I looked so I thought some of the people on here could help.

Thanks a lot!!!

Ryan

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

Maybe just something else to keep track of and fiddle around with? Maybe?

 

[627PCFan]

If I were to hazard a guess, partial moon clips, like the half moon clips were probably slower to load since you had to partially eject both halves, pick out the 3 that were used(assuming you thought enough to line up the clips so the 1st 3 shots were on one clip) As far as full moon clips go, they do bend, even with today's metals, and they can be slightly more awkward to carry than a speed loader or strip. And thats just the 45's. The 357 guys have to find the right combination of brass and moonclip manufacturer or we get too much wiggle and can cause orientation problems when loading.

 

[tarosean]

Toss a few moon clips in your pocket for your day to day activities and see how mangled they end up..

 

[bluetopper]

Because the 38 Special suited them just fine and it was on a smaller, lighter frame;easier to carry.

 

[Jim K]

A few police carried S&W or Colt .45 ACP revolvers, but most departments favored the .357 or the much lighter .38 Specials, like the K-frame S&Ws or the Colt Official Police. When police were still carrying revolvers, the system of partially cutting away a cylinder to allow rimmed cartridges to be loaded with clips or individually had not been developed, so devices like speed loaders were the best alternative.

Later, of course, the whole problem of rapid reloads for police was solved by going to magazine fed auto pistols.

Jim

 

[dprice3844444]

cops were lucky they could hit a target with a 38,much less a 45

 

[ryan3465]

Thank you for the responses everyone! That pretty much answers it. I haven't had much experience with moon clips so I did not realize the fragility of them. Thanks!!

 

[WC145]

Except for Taurus' "Stellar" clips, full moonclips are not nearly as fragile as some make them out to be. I have revolvers in 9mm, .40, and .45acp and have never had an issue with clips bending in my pocket or in pouches. The shorter rounds are very fast to reload, no fumbling with knobs or having a speed loader left in your hand to discard after loading. I will agree that long cartridges like .38/.357s can be a bit slower because they're not held as tight in the clip and they wiggle around making it harder to line them up.

As to why cops never warmed up to the moonclipped .45s back in the day I'd have to agree with the comments on size and weight. Also, they may have been perceived as "military arms" unlike the .32 and .38, which were accepted, probably thanks to marketing, as a "police appropriate" gun and cartridge combos right from the start. You may recall the old Colt Police Positive and the S&W M&P (Miltary & Police) revolvers which were hugely popular with PD's for decades, even long after the .357mag was introduced.

 

[jmorris]

There are more than a few police officers that never fire a gun except to qualify and carry what ever the dept. give them. I don't know of any moonclip revo that was ever the cheapest that money could buy and more than a few Government decisions are biased on that factor.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have a 455 Webley mark IV (black powder era) cut for .45 Auto Rim and I must say it is fast to reload with moonclips (of course using with .45 ACP loaded to approximate .455 Webly BP loads). But practical field use would require carrying the loaded moon clips in a belt pouch. A moonclip of 45s is a big lump in the pants pocket. If your going to use a belt pouch for spare ammo limited to two or three moonclip/speedloaders, using a conventional revolver, then speedloaders are more convenient in the long run for day to day utility.

The M1917 revolvers in .45ACP both the Colt and Smith&Wesson were somewhat popular but post WWI the ammo companies produced the .45 AutoRim cartridge for them because not everyone was entralled by the the half moon and full moon clip convenience.

 

[JTQ]

I don't know, just speculating, and somebody with real historical knowledge may pipe in.

1. When were full moon clips invented? If you're dealing with half moon clips, as mentioned earlier, they would seem to be somewhat of a pain to load, both into the clip, and in an out of the gun.

2. When were belt pouches for moon or half moon clips with loaded rounds invented? Sure you could have a moon clip, but if you had to carry them in your pocket that would be somewhat inconvenient.

3. When were speed loaders invented? Was it in the late '60's or early '70's? Maybe the police in the old days didn't concern themselves with the high speed reload as we think of so much today. While we now see masters like Jerry Miculek using moon clips with great speed for reloads, I believe the original idea behind moon clips was to simply allow you to eject the cases out of the cylinder without having to stick a pencil or screw driver in each chamber and push the spent cases out.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Actually six individual empties, two 3 shot half moon clips or one 6 shot full moon clip eject in the same time. Like speedloaders, the advantage is in the reload.

I feel in a combat situation (or zombie apocalypse, both about as likely with a antique curio/relic gun), I could reload my cut Webley with full moon clips quicker than speedloader, or half moon clips, and especially faster than with loose rounds.

I have shot the Webley with clips at the local black powder cartridge pistol match and keeping up with empties is more convenient with them all clipped together than dealing with individual cartridge cases.

 

[Bikewer]

"cops were lucky they could hit a target with a 38,much less a 45"......

General statements are generally wrong...

I've been in police work for over 40 years and I have seen an awful lot of coppers shoot... Most all of 'em pretty well, thanks.

Anyway... Back when I started, in '68, the county department I was on was rather "loose" in regards to firearms carrried. As long as it was a Smith or a Colt, and .38 special or better, you could carry it.
And indeed several of the guys carried the big N-Frame Smiths, either the surplus 1917 models or the "1955 Target" model in .45 ACP.
I knew a couple of guys who carried their spare ammo in half-moon clips, using standard ammo pouches.

I suspect the reason these were not more generally used were several... One, they were only available in the big N-Frame revolvers. These are big, heavy guns. If you don't have large hands, they can be a bit of a handful, especially with the full-sized Smith grips.
Also, I don't recall a lot of 4" barrels being available for these.... Which makes a "swivel" holster necesary if you're sitting in a car.

There was not then the availability of good JHP .45 ammo. Most everything was ball... Not the best for a combat weapon. If you reloaded, you could stuff whatever you liked into a .45 Auto Rim case, of course.

Police departments like uniformity... And All the officers who carried non-standard weapons were required to carry .38 Special backup ammo... The idea being you could share if you were in a firefight.
Nobody much wanted to carry two different kinds of ammo...

It didnt' take all that long before the .357 Magnum had become the de-facto standard, and then it was in fact the standard when they started issuing the stainless model later on.

I had several Smith 1917s, you could pick 'em up back then for about 50 dollars at gun shows and they were fun guns and pretty good shooters.
I used to load the Auto Rim brass with hard-cast SWC bullets and they would have made good duty guns with some decent sights and a 4" barrel.

 

[627PCFan]

IRC, the half moons were invented by the military because it was easier to issue to the GI's crated and shippable(density wise) than full moon clips. Kinda makes sense when you think about it.
Source: Military Channel on TV

And I believe they came in 3 flavors, full moon, 1/2 moon and 2 round clips

 

[Jim K]

When the U.S. entered WWI, the Army was sadly short of all weapons, even the basic M1903 rifle. They knew from the experience of Allied armies that the handgun would be important in trench fighting, and the new M1911 pistol was not, and was not likely to be, available in sufficient quantity for the projected size of the AEF. So Army Ordnance asked the big revolver makers, Colt and S&W, if they could produce revolvers to help fill the gap, but in .45 ACP so they wouldn't have to supply two different types of pistol ammo.

One problem, obviously, was that the .45 ACP could be fired in a revolver if the chamber was made with a shoulder, but wouldn't extract. S&W solved the problem by inventing the half-moon clip, and the Colt and S&W revolvers, both designated the Model 1917, were made to accept the .45 ACP with clips.

Clips were carried in a pouch which had three pockets, each of which held two loaded clips. When the ammunition had been fired, cases and clips were ejected and discarded.

Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Good answer Jim K. I picked up this S&W Model 1917 last year. It was made in 1918. The box of ammo came along with it. I dunno exactly when this ammo was made, but the United States Cartridge Company ceased production in Lowell in 1926. The box was almost full, it consists of 24 rounds mounted on half moon clips, not full moon clips. Each half moon clip sits in its own compartment in the box.

 

[Jim K]

Some of those cartridges were given three stab crimps because they had had problems with the bullets jumping forward under recoil and jamming at the forcing cone, hanging up the revolver. I am not sure whether it was that or the packing in-half moon clips that caused the change in nomenclature to "Revolver Cartridge" instead of "Automatic Pistol Cartridge." AFAIK, otherwise the cartridges were identical.

Jim

 

[SunnySlopes]

If you're dealing with half moon clips, as mentioned earlier, they would seem to be somewhat of a pain to load, both into the clip, and in an out of the gun.

You got that right. Especially if you're loading them without a tool (remember that little bottle opener looking thing) by hand in cold weather.

Downright painful.

 

[JERRY]

because the safariland comp IIs are near impossible to beat for a fast revolver reload.

 

[rcmodel]

the half moons were invented by the military

Actually, half-moon clips were invented by Joseph H. Wesson of the Smith & Wesson Company.
He was one of Daniel Wesson's three sons.

Here are his revolver loading patents filed in 1916-1917.

Speed loader pack:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=IG...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Jointed moon clip & spring steel Half moon clip:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4614053?dq=Patent+Number:+1231106&ei=P0AQUvPxI8SQ2gX2l4CIDg

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-o...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

He first invented the chain-link full-moon clip, but found testing it too complicated, fragile, & bulky for military use.

His half-moon patent was deemed more desirable and better suited for a fighting revolver.

Half-moons were deemed desirable due too much less space taken up in packaging and ammo pouches on the Battle field in WWI.


Full-moon clips, and two-shot clips were a much later innovation dating to the 70's or 80's for use in revolver speed shooting games, not war.

Rather then making money with his invention, Joseph H. Wesson & the Smith & Wesson Company freely shared it with Colt so both company's could provide revolvers chambered in .45 ACP to further the war effort in WWI.



As for the OP's question?

Because N-Frame S&W's and Colt New Service revolvers are pretty big and heavy guns.
As is the ammo for them.

Cops back then were still carrying little .32 revolvers and were perfectly fine with them because they were light on the belt.

And most of them did not expect to ever have to fire a shot in anger in their whole carrier.

Prolonged gun fights and Speed-loading involving 6 Glock 17 mags full of misses were yet to arrive on the radar!!

rc

 

[Jim K]

Thanks for that additional information, rcmodel. It is interesting that he actually did patent a 6 shot clip, very like the modern ones.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

PS: It's also worth noting that all S&W 1917's had the chambers correctly reamed with headspace shoulders so the revolver would load & fire .45 ACP without the clips if necessary.

Colts first 1917's were bored straight through, and a .45 ACP without the clip would drop in the chamber and fall out the other end of the cylinder.

S&W freely allowed Colt to use that brilliant idea during the war too.
And they did later into production.


PPS: It's also worth noting that current S&W revolvers with the MIM hammer and frame mounted firing pin are not 100% reliable without moon clips controlling the headspace.
Due to excess headspace and insufficient firing pin protrusion in many of them.

What a difference 95 years of 'improvements' in a proven design makes huh!!

rc

 

[RealGun]

I think gun choices were often administrative rather than based on popularity with the troops and policemen who actually carried them.

 

[dogrunner]

In all my years in that field.........started in '62 and finished in 96.......I not once saw any officer carry the half or full moon clip setup........fact is, I can't recall any packing those old large frame revolvers. The K framed guns and the similar versions in Colt's inventory were the ones nearly always seen. N framed guns were seen, but rarely, mostly in the 27/28 variants.

Far as caliber went, well mostly it was almost universally the .38 spl rnd, with a large number of .357 chambered guns out there even if the special was the mandated and issued round.

And RCmodel.....I saw precisely ONE .32 S&W carried throughout that period of time and that was by an administrator in plain clothes......in uniform he used a Colt trooper. That and the Python were common (if one could afford that latter)

Training was a real grab bag back then......when I started the emphasis was on marksmanship and consequently bullseye targets were the medium used..............and up to 50 yards at that! Silhouette targets, ie the B27 and such appeared commonly in the later '60's and rather quickly replaced the more disciplined training base with more realistic methodology.

Holsters: Well, the Border Patrol version by Myers was the mandated rig where I started, tho later on that shifted to higher, closer to the body ones. I also recall a lot of cross draw (unseen today!) rigs by Bucheimer and such. I can recall a few.....very few clamshell designs and also some of the mentioned swivel types...personally never liked 'em and found that the stock BP rigs worked ok for vehicular carry with a 4 inch K.

Far as ability goes back then...well just as today there were some good shots, some crappy & didn't give a damn types.....One thing you enthusiastic shooter/gear types need to remember is that MOST cops viewed and still view that gun as a mere tool, some are better with it than others and I see no change to this very day in that regard.

Too, many, many agencies mandated that officers had to purchase their own gear.......hulluva bite back then as it could take up two month's salary to come up even!

You fella's would probably choke knowing that you had to buy a revolver and rig.........plus uniforms and attendant gear PERSONALLY on a salary base that was less than 70.00 a week!......ah, the 'good old days'!


Dang, I meant to add herein that the most common ammo carry way back was of two general sorts. Ammo dump pouches or open ctg loop type.........speed loaders and strips didn't appear till the very late 60's or early 70's as I recall.........might be off some on the dates, but not by much. Those dump pouches were the source of a lot of amusement when you were a rookie and you'd spend a lotta time picking up your ammo before or after briefing!