WI: need young, attractive females

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My Thanks go out to the moderators for letting this continue. It is by far one of the most entertaining threads I have had the pleasure of waking up too on Sunday morning !

Colt may have made all men equal, but it is sex that is the great equalizer when it comes to men and women . That's my opinion ! ( actualy I think the male is at a disadvantage most of the time ) And that's what I believe to be fact .

Some have express a sadness that sex is a part of market stradigy . I don't understand why there would be any sadness involved ? It is a natural part of the human species , and our thinking .

If women weren't viewed as sex objects by men then this would be a whole lot different world . (and not particularly good different for the female side of the species) . Hell , it's how most of us got to the planet isn't it ?

I'm sure that the young attractive females behind the tables will help a lot more than hinder the efforts - and those that take offense to the stradigy ? Well , I respecfully disagree with you.

It's not a matter of disrespect to women in my opinion - it is simply a matter of exploiting human nature.
 
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Since I (and my wife) were mentioned in the first post, I figured I should chime in...

>There are issues other than gun rights that are important to me, and using women is one of them.<

Funny... Spoon has never felt "used" by helping at a gunshow. And she's never dressed any differently than she does for work: she works retail, which is fairly close to what Dick's asking people to do here.

Do I like that sex and appearance is so important in marketing? No, I don't. However, I think I'd rather work on that issue AFTER my wife and I I have ability to defend ourselves effectively, and not the other way around...
 
Fewer things are more pleaseing to the eye than a finely crafted weapon and a beautiful woman, they go well together. Apple pie and Icecream!
 
Since we're into social anthropology now...

There's a difference between a tastefully attired female who can engage in intelligent discourse about a product and a mindless bikini clad cute one. The former will not only attract attention and respect, the latter typecasts the buyers as sex driven neantherdals. That's just my opinion. I'll have to ask a social anthropologist that I'm acquainted with for a more educated opinion.
 
I have to admit, I agree with Monkeyleg and Stilletto here. Barb, chill out.

Fact: There are more male shooters than female shooters.

Fact: A kind smile from a young woman makes men more pliable.

Fact: A kind smile from a young man makes women more pliable.

Hey, straight folks respond to young attractive members of the opposite sex by paying attention to what they are talking about. If the young person is stupid, they stop paying attention, but in the beginning, they have the attention of the older person.

If this were something female predominated, I might want young hunks, but the shooting community, especially at a gun show is 90% male. Therefore, you cater to male interests. And right at the top of male interests are attractive young women.

You could borrow my girlfriend if it weren't for our work schedules. Chjo well...
 
The way I see it is this. If you're going to get a couple of attractive females to draw the people in, you should have a couple of attractive males too. Not only will they draw in the female crowd, but you might get more men in tool ;)

All's fair in love, war and advertising. In fact, in advertising EVERYTHING is up for grabs!
 
On second thought:

Look, attractive females sell. That's a fact of life. But let's not water the topic down by pretending that this is an issue of male dominance or sex-crazed neadrethalism; it's not.

Marketing uses certain aspects of our human nature, things that stem from deeply ingrained needs or desires to make a product or service more appealing.

Mainstream young women aren't likely to be too keen on striking up a conversation with a guy in a John Deer hat and overalls who's over 50, nor the guy in the camo pants and the drop-leg rig, nor the guy with the "cold, dead hands" t-shirt. It may happen, but it’s not often; and when it does happen, it involves a certain type of woman that's a little removed from your mainstream female audience. The females that will be comfortable doing that are often already within the culture of firearms and thus, they're exposed to these folks and know that they're not all hillbillies straight out of Deliverance.

But give that same mainstream young woman another female to chat with and it's a whole different story. If you want young females to enter into the market, you need young women that those females can identify with to serve as the vehicle. Mainstream females that would normally be more concerned about their health and their bodies, social issues, their family and whether or not John is going to call her back for a second date than their Second Amendment rights or the ability to defend themselves need to identify with other females in the gun rights industry if they're ever going to make any sort of transition. If you want to bring them around, you need to give them a vehicle that is similar to the embodiment of what they desire and show them that it's okay to have another facet to them (i.e. self defense and 2A rights).

You need to make the vehicle as appealing as possible, not by being sexy, but by possessing characteristics that the female can identify either in practice or in desire. Most females want to be or to feel pretty and be able to balance being desirable with being productive and accomplished; a pretty girl that embodies those basic desires will attract other females. A huffy-gruff Annie Oakley in blue jeans with a mustache and a straw hat is not going to attract today's young female audience. Nor will it likely attract the male audience. Simple human dynamics.

For men, an attractive woman serves to satisfy our need and desire to be appreciated and at the very least, accepted by the opposite sex. It's not always about being sex-crazed.

Men also find women easier to talk to because it is easier to establish our own dominance (even if it's only in our own minds) because unlike men, women are much more subtle and won't directly confront a man's views like another man would. They'll gently coax the male towards their side of the issue. If you give a man a way into seeing your side of things that does not endanger his maledom, he can take it without much of a stigma.

Despise it all you want, wish it weren't so until you're blue in the face, shake your mighty fists at the heavens themselves in defiance until the cows come home, things are as they are. The type of females that Monkeyleg is looking for will accomplish what he wants them to accomplish; making the particular booth more palatable and approachable for men and women alike. Nothing sexist about it. Nothing abusive or exploitative about it either. Sorry to disappoint all of you roaring idealists.
 
Barbara said:
Cripes, Al..next thing you know, you'll be telling them I'm actually fairly easy to get along with and that I like men.
Click to expand...
Well, I was going to, but you beat me to it. ;)

To everyone else:

You know, Barbara is entitled to her opinion. If you don't like it, say so, but don't jump down her throat like a pack of wild dogs.

I don't always agree with her, but that's the way it is. Personally, I see nothing wrong with having a couple of attractive people to draw crowds. But then I'm not attractive, so I wouldn't be one of those people getting ogled at.

But she IS entitled to her opinion, and her posts to this thread or any other are NOT despicable, or anything like that. She simply voiced her opinion. If any of you don't like it, that's your opinion too. But using terms like the one above can lead to unfortunate flame wars, and could drive her away from here again. That would be a great loss for this forum. Barbara is one of the staunchest pro-2nd amendment/CCW people I have the pleasure of knowing.

If you want to pick on someone, pick on me. I support giving guns to Gays, AND teaching them how to use them properly! :evil:

Then again, so does Barbara. :D
 
When I first started doing something about CHL, I was visibly nervous and tended to leave the line often to plop down in the lounge and watch TV. The one employee of the indoor range that came to settle down the old guy happened to be the only female counter person on staff.

I tend to avoid stereotypes but, although I came to be friends with some of the guys working the counter, I just can't picture any of them calming and coaching the dude taking up CHL. It's the type of empathy that testosterone seems to inhibit for whatever reason.

Must have worked, I did shoot the only perfect score in my CHL class subsequently. The female instructor (not the counter lady) was coincidence - the classes had instructors randomly assigned.

The lessons I wound up taking at the shotgun range were also from a nice lady. But it just so happens the range only had one club pro and she happened to be female.

Maybe it's just a happy coincidence based on being in Texas, but the three people that were the biggest influence in my "firearm born again" days were all female, none would be confused with "booth babes" (well, counter lady was awful easy on the eyes...) and were just plain extremely competent.

When I see a booth with any of the three in attendance, I do tend to favor it. No offense to the gents, but conversations occuring among a bunch of dudes at a gun booth are predictable in the extreme and hence boring.

I know when I see any of ladies of my acquaintance that the conversation topic cannot be accurately predicted. At least I can't make book that it will involve FPB safties. I might be reminded that I take instruction real well "for a guy" but somehow, I never grow tired of hearing that. :)

I tend to think the thread starter has a great idea. Concurrently, I'm not at all certain I could have phrased it in a manner less certain to draw out the negative comments. Possibly omitted reference to their appearance? Let's face it, any female, particularly those expert on firearms and personable, are going to be very intriguing as far as I'm concerned - regardless if the editorial staff of Maxim would agree with me.

Perhaps my experience of noting that the first three women I met in the firearms field have perhaps forgotten more than I'll ever know gives me a unique perspective. One thing for sure, there's a negative chance of my ever making the trek to TN and turning up on Tamara's blog as one of those males that assumes any female is deficient in firearms knowledge.
 
Wow! I leave the forum at 5:30 am, and wake up to World War III!

Pax, Old Fuff, 1911Tuner, I'd hoped that this thread would have been shut down, just because it seemed like it was getting ugly.

Well, it's become less ugly, though I'm still surprised it's not locked.

Barbara, I think you know by now just how much I respect you. But you're wrong about my intentions, and thus wrong in your posts. (And, BTW, you're wrong about yourself: you're not fat and ugly. You sound like my wife, who at age 52 is still very lovely, but continually denigrates herself because she's not 21 anymore).

Look, I'm not talking T&A here, and I'm not talking about slinky evening gowns. And I'm not talking about getting Hooters girls. If you noticed in one of my follow-up posts, I mentioned a wide range of ages. "Young," from my 55 year-old perspective, can be 45 years old.

Hunter Rose's wife "Spoon" was, as I've said, very effective in drawing both men and women to our tables at the gun shows. So were other females, none of whom I would characterize as fashion models.

After five years of working the gun shows for CCW, it's clear to me that women tend to be more comfortable speaking to other women, particularly in a largely male environment. And that men will be more likely to take time to write their legiscritters if a woman asks.

It is what it is, and someone can plug their ears and scream and yell, but it will remain so.

This event is intended to bring in as much money as possible to help defeat Governor Doyle and his cronies. It's not a whorehouse nor a strip club. It's a fund-raiser.

Believe it or not, the University of Wisconsin-Madison has a shooting club. :what: I'll be contacting the head of that shooting club to see if any of their female members can help out.

I guess I should have titled and worded my initial post differently. While this is all very entertaining to read, the thread has done almost nothing to recruit volunteers for the event.
 
"You know what's funny? I bet at least 50 of you are suspecting I'm cranky about it because I'm fat and ugly."


Nope, never crossed my mind, now man hater........j/k.]
My wife agrees with you......but then she's a man hater.
 
In the cooler light of day

OK, I've been reprimanded by a mod that I have great respect for: Pax.

After my tirades last night, and again this morning when waking up, I've thought through this issue a lot. I've reread the thread in 'scan mode' today, paying particular attention to Barbara's arguments.

I share her sense of anger about this issue because I have several young, attractive female friends (and just as many "older attractive female" friends) whom I know to be sensitive to such issues.

To MonkeyLeg: I support your work on CCW in your state. I think it's great. I encourage you, however, sir, to read Barbara's arguments carefully. She is making a great point, and doing so more articulately and with greater grace than I did last night.

I'm sorry to you for having snipped so hard in my comments last night. Clearly, your thread - even though I trust that you meant well - touched a nerve for me.

I suspect that in the end, this may be one of those irreconcilable differences of worldview.

For me, the ends don't always justify the means. I'm NOT OK with using women as props (to borrow Barbara's argument) to draw in gun buyers.

Yes, of course, sex (or 'attractive people of the appropriate gender') sells. Don't you think I know that?

My issue is that I think it's not justified. Just because it works doesn't mean that we should use it, especially when it offends many of the same people to whom we would like to sell our products. (As Barbara stated, you lost her as a customer.)

And THAT'S where we differ. I have services to sell in my business. I could couch those services in ads using sexy people and definitely sell them more effectively.

But I choose not to. I want my services to be worthy of purchase on their own right, without window dressing (or undressing as the case may be).

And, given that many of my clients are women, I know that many of them would be offended by advertizement based in sexist practice. (Barbara's point again.)

As for the images on Oleg's studio site, sure I've seen them. I've respected them. I like them a lot. In fact, his image "Quite staring. Get your own." is on my desk top right now.

But, IMO, for me - others, including Oleg, can speak for themselves - those artistic images convey a different meaning than "let's sell guns". In fact, I'd venture to say that the message of those images speak to this very issue that's being debated here.

OK, again, apologies to MonkeyLeg, ChickenFried, Pax and others for stirring up a flame war last night. I'll try to do better.

It's a very, very busy week coming for me, so I'll probably not participate much in this debate. (I should stand aside anyway after my tirade of last night.)

But I will be reading with interest.

And, I wish you success in your gun sale for a good cause.

Sincerely,

Nem
 
I fail to see how the strategy is bad from any angle. In fact it's obviously a good idea.

I cannot understand how anyone can think that hiring women to work at a stand hurts the women OR the men. How is this going to drive away women? Do women seriously go into a gun show and avoid booths with women working there?

How is this going to drive away women? It's going to ATTRACT women. A woman can sell another woman on CCW far better than a man can.

Hiring young, attractive females for this purpose is a win-win strategy, and commendable. I don't see how this can be seen as offensive at all.
 
Oh, and by the way, Barbara: should you change your mind about all of this, I would invite you to attend the banquet and work one of the gun tables.

Dinner is on me.
 
I think that having women present at the booth will encourage both men and women to come over to it. I know that I would be much more comfortable talking to a female and getting information that I would be to a male. I just do not know a whole lot about guns right now, and I would be afraid of making a fool of myself. I asked some of my girl friends today while we were out to lunch, and they agreed. For a girl it is just easier to get information from another girl. It is not as intimidating. We have a better way of relating to each other. I think this will be a good opportunity to possibly get more women involved. I would love to help you, but that is a little far for me to travel at the moment. I wish you the best of luck though!
 
Would I have to wear a pushup bra? :neener:

If it makes you feel any better, I walked clean out of a room full of Supreme Court Justices and Senators and other people who consider themselves Very Important in a huff the other day because someone started spewing racist crap..its hard being me with my conflicting views on everything..) I'm an idealist, and don't appear to be getting any better with age.

(In fact, I don't think I'm either fat or ugly. I'm a fairly normal 37 year old woman. I just don't spend a lot of time looking purty because its not helpful in anything I do.)

We'll see..if I get less huffy by then, I'll see what I can do about bringing some friends..maybe even a date. With like..an actual male-type person. NOt a wimpy one, though.

If not, I know one fine looking young sailor down your way whose been dragged to gun rights stuff since he was a little guy. I bet he'd be glad to give you a hand if he doesn't get new orders by then.
 
"We'll see..if I get less huffy by then, I'll see what I can do about bringing some friends..maybe even a date. With like..an actual male-type person. NOt a wimpy one, though."

If your male friend isn't able to attend, please let me know.

My closest nephew is about to be promoted to Commander in the US Navy. He looks really sharp in his dress blues, and his wife has no problem with him accompanying other women to functions. He is both an officer and a gentleman.

Damn, I'm proud of him.

Nematocyst-870, I appreciate your post. I shouldn't have been arguing with you in the wee hours of the night.

Now, can we turn this thread into something that actually helps the cause?
 
I think that one thing that is being overlooked is that Dick is looking for young/attractive shooters. He's not looking for eye candy that would have trouble remembering that the pointy end goes in first into the chamber, but rather someone who can carry on a conversation about guns/ccw (while exploiting the "sex sells" angle).

In the first intance I'm usually somewhat put off by the idea that I'm going to buy "x" product because I'm so dazzled that I don't notice what I'm doing. In the second case though (& what I think that Dick is looking for), I'm much more willing to listen to a sales pitch if there is an intelligent conversation that goes along with it.

Minor threadjack from page 2(?):
Military Persons in Uniform would be a better idea with all the goings on in the world.
Click to expand...

No. They would then be lending their uniform to a political cause. Around here we tend to get grumpy when police in uniform show up for anti's press confrences standing behind the podium in a (supposed) show of support. It shouldn't be acceptable this time just because it is a cause we believe in.
 
I'll tell you what, Dick. If you promise not to have girls draped over guns like the Swedish Bikini Team, I'll make and donate a quilt to your dinner, for sale, raffle, whatever you can do with it.

Maybe one of those geezers who could use something to keep them warm at night. :)
 
I've been involved with the FNRA fund raisers here for a number of years.

Yes we have young girls hawking tickets, usually with their husbands and/or fathers watching closely.

We pay them well. When the state allowed us to pay them on a consignment basis, they would make around $200 for the event (each). Now that the state only allows us to "tip" them, they still make around $200 per event (each). College or young married girls don't appreciate 'dinner', they appreciate cash.

My feeling is, and I'm sure some males here would agree with me, is that I (as a 56 yr old married male) am going to spend a certain (pre-determined) amount of money at one of these events. It doesn't matter who is selling the tickets.

What is important, and please pay attention:

We feel much better giving our money to a attractive young woman than to a beer-bellied guy wearing a VFW cap.

Just the way it is.

Flame away.
 
Nem, Barbara, & Monkeyleg ~

This page shows why I left the thread open even though it seemed hopeless at first glance.

People, I'm downright proud to be numbered among you. I just plain enjoy hanging out on THR with such good folks.

We don't all have to agree in order to all get along ...

pax

Look, I'm going down to the arsenal on a gun run. Anybody want anything? -- Sledge Hammer
 
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