Wild animal defense…NOT A WHAT GUN FOR BEARS THREAD!

[H&Hhunter]

Please watch this video before replying to this thread.
https://youtu.be/FDGM7QgxuWw

In any case what prompted me to start this thread is an event that happened three days ago. My daughter had three class mates from Vet school decide to take a hike up a trail just to the west of Ft Collins in the foot hills of the Rockies. Their plan was to hike up the trail predawn and watch the sun rise from atop a popular overlook 1.7 miles from the trail head. The trail takes some time to climb because it gains over 1200’ elevation in that distance.

About .75 miles into the hike one of the three young ladies noticed a set of eyes shinning in her head lamp beam off to the side of the trail in the grass fairly close to the trail. As they stopped and tried to figure out what kind of animal it was it quickly became apparent that it was a Mt Lion crouched swishing the tip of its tail and getting ready to pounce.

None of the three had a weapon of any kind. While I consider that their first mistake what they did next saved them from a mauling and very likely a fatality. They all three went shoulder to shoulder to appear as large as possible and they started to loudly and as deeply as possible make grunts and shouts as they slowly approached the cat. At first the cat challenged them and after a tense stand off decided to turn and run away.

They then stood back to back scanning the the area with head lamps and waited for the sun to come up before cautiously returning to the trail head.

They handled the situation as well as it could be handled given their lack of having any defense tools amongst themselves. They broke the cats predatory response by facing it and moving towards it. They threw off its confidence by shouldering up in a group making themselves appear large and they did not turn and retreat down the trail in the dark which very well could have renewed cats predatory response.

Now on to the linked video. The point the guy makes in the video is that it doesn’t really matter what defense platform you carry, mindset and training are far more important than caliber or spray. I’ll add that understanding predator behavior and habitat is one of the most important elements in staying safe in the back country.

Taking one look at the terrain where this event occurred makes my lion hunting sense tingle. The trail goes up a narrow steep rock draw with tons of ambush points for cats, in short it’s perfect Lion habitat in the middle of some of the most densely populated Lion country in the USA. I’d definitely carry a gun or spray at all times and I’d really like to have a dog with me if I was hiking it in the dark.

I can’t blame the three young ladies, they aren’t from the local area. While they understood enough about predatory behavior to react as well as they could. I’m guessing they never figured that they’d run into a large predator in a state park almost within the city limits. This is a common mistake that people make. Park does not equal safe, in fact it means that the meat eaters living their are not frightened of humans as they don’t see them as a threat.

 

[1942bull]

I would advise them to not walk toward or away from the predator just as one wold in a bear encounter. I hike is black bear country year round. I have had a couple encounters over the past 40 years. Bear spray ended the encounter quickly. I sprayed a coyote with it a few weeks ago, and the animal took off running. Bear spray will work on any breathing mammal. I also carry a 9mm loaded with Underwood Extreme Defender +P+ ammo. It is designed for deeper penetration than other bullets. Underwood describes it an a woodsman ammo.

 

[mcb]

If your mind is a weapon you are never unarmed. You are the weapon everything else is an accessory. That is not to say you leave the tools at home, good tools make any job significantly easier but mental preparation is number one.

I really like the story of the young ladies. They handled the situation excellently.

 

[Axis II]

I dont live in bear country but we have bobcats, black bears coming from other states, and coyotes out the wazoo. My motto has always been you never know who or what is in the woods so I always have a full size handgun with 1 extra mag on me.

 

[Buzznrose]

Good video. Good story about the three young ladies! Good on them for keeping their wits about them.

My takeaway from both the bear attack and the mountain lion encounter is:

1. Situational awareness is critical…always!

2. The brain is the primary weapon…everything else is just a tool. Mindset is critical to success, especially in life or death situations.

3. Never assume how an animal will react, which includes unfamiliar dogs (from my personal experience).

Thanks for sharing!!!

 

[.455_Hunter]

We live west of Boulder in the same sort of foothills area described by H&Hhunter. Our family has taken the "aggressive" stance with cats on more than one occasion. Most recently, my son and I arrived home in the dark after small-bore rifle practice. There was an adult cat in our driveway who did not want to leave the area, stopping to observe us from what would be our "front yard". I charged up the hillside towards him or her, Maglite in one hand, pistol in the other- flashing the light, whooping and hollering. That cat skedaddled real fast...

In 1997, my father while hiking alone and coming back to the house had to use my Security-Six to land a .357 Gold Dot in the tree trunk above a stalking cat's head. Once again, the cat skedaddled real fast. It was a good outcome- my Dad had ringing ears and the cat had a new respect for humans.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I would advise them to not walk toward or away from the predator just as one wold in a bear encounter. I hike is black bear country year round. I have had a couple encounters over the past 40 years. Bear spray ended the encounter quickly. I sprayed a coyote with it a few weeks ago, and the animal took off running. Bear spray will work on any breathing mammal. I also carry a 9mm loaded with Underwood Extreme Defender +P+ ammo. It is designed for deeper penetration than other bullets. Underwood describes it an a woodsman ammo.

Interesting point about holding your ground. With a bear I’d agree. My experience with cats is they don’t like to be approached. I’m sure that there isn’t a 100% right answer.

 

[.455_Hunter]

My experience with cats is they don’t like to be approached. I’m sure that there isn’t a 100% right answer.

My thought is that they are "normally" an apex predator in a given area, and don't really know how to process unexpected/unfamiliar aggression directed in their direction from potential "prey".

 

[Armored farmer]

I’m sure that there isn’t a 100% right answer.

There probably isn't an answer that would work in every situation, but in this situation....they handled it perfectly.
Imho...anytime everyone walks away unharmed....etc.

 

[jmr40]

Good video.

I'm 63, have been hunting since about 11 or 12, mostly alone. Over that time I've had 2 bobcats and 3 coyote stalk me while hunting. Mostly when calling ducks or turkey. They heard the calls and stalked toward the sound. I spotted them 1st and when they figured out I wasn't prey they left. No telling how many did the same and I never knew it.

The closest encounter was with a bobcat. My brother and I were walking pre-dawn toward a beaver pond to duck hunt. It was a cloudless morning with a full moon. We didn't need a light to see the trail, in fact there was enough moonlight to cast a shadow as we walked. Apparently the bobcat heard us walking and was waiting in ambush thinking we were a deer or turkey. I put my right boot down literally inches from it when it bolted and ran behind me and in front of my brother. I only saw a flash of movement, but my brother identified it as a bobcat.

When I was 13 or 14 I walked up on 3 guys in the process of stripping a stolen Mustang they had driven as far down a logging trail as they could before getting it stuck. I was coming from the other direction just before sunup walking to a spot to squirrel hunt. I believe I set a new worlds record for the 2 mile run while carrying a shotgun. Too bad no one timed it.

When I was 17 I stumbled onto a moonshine still. It was inoperable and had been destroyed when I found it, but it had been in operation fairly recently. Had I gone to that spot the previous hunting season who knows.

I've also encountered several guys driving, camping or just hanging out on public land where I hunt that just left me with an uneasy feeling.

Never seen a big cat in the wild but were told one had raided a campground earlier in the summer where we were staying near Creede Colorado. It killed some chickens belonging to the owners.

Black bear are common around here and I see them often. I've never felt threatened by one. The biggest problem is people feeding them either deliberately or inadvertently. Once they associate people with food they will expect it from other hikers and can be aggressive.

Because of all of the above when in the woods or driving to remote hunting/hiking spots I carry a handgun anywhere legal. I did buy some bear spray a few years ago for those places where a gun isn't legal. I've always felt that the bigger concern was 2 legged predators and for that reason I've always preferred a semi over a revolver. The lighter, more compact size outweighs magnum power of a revolver for the type of threat I see as most likely. And I decided a G29 in 10mm would be the perfect compromise. But anymore I'm seeing enough to make me think that a properly loaded 9mm isn't a bad choice.

I find this study very informative.

Handgun or Pistol Defense Against Bear Attack: 73 cases, 96% Effective (ammoland.com)

 

[Nature Boy]

I don't think about this very often (if at all) as I don't live in bear country.

The last time I visited a place where you can see a lot of bears was when I was vacationing in the Jackson Hole/Yellowstone area. Like most tourists visiting the region who plan on doing some hiking, were sold some bear spray and given rudimentary training but I was banking on statistics and probabilities to keep me and the family from becoming Yogi snacks.

To that point I did a little googling and came across this:

Bears Have Killed Eight People in Yellowstone Park Since 1872
(Source: National Park Service)

• Comparatively, the park had 121 drownings, 26 suicides, and 21 burns in the same period.
• You have a higher chance of dying from a falling tree, an avalanche, or getting struck by lightning than a Yellowstone bear attack — one in 2.7 million.
• If you remain in a developed area, the chances decrease to one in 59 million. In contrast, hiking backcountry will increase your chance of a grizzly bear attack to approximately 1 in 232,000.

Between 2–5 People in North America Die From Attacks by Bears Annually
(Source: The Alaska Life)

• Since 1900, 61 people have been killed by a black bear in North America. These are the rarest attacks compared to the ones by grizzly bears.
• In contrast, grizzlies are 20 times more dangerous than the black bear.
• You’re 425,000 times more likely to die from heart disease than a bear attack.

 

[Buzznrose]

Good video.

I'm 63, have been hunting since about 11 or 12, mostly alone. Over that time I've had 2 bobcats and 3 coyote stalk me while hunting. Mostly when calling ducks or turkey. They heard the calls and stalked toward the sound. I spotted them 1st and when they figured out I wasn't prey they left. No telling how many did the same and I never knew it.

The closest encounter was with a bobcat. My brother and I were walking pre-dawn toward a beaver pond to duck hunt. It was a cloudless morning with a full moon. We didn't need a light to see the trail, in fact there was enough moonlight to cast a shadow as we walked. Apparently the bobcat heard us walking and was waiting in ambush thinking we were a deer or turkey. I put my right boot down literally inches from it when it bolted and ran behind me and in front of my brother. I only saw a flash of movement, but my brother identified it as a bobcat.

When I was 13 or 14 I walked up on 3 guys in the process of stripping a stolen Mustang they had driven as far down a logging trail as they could before getting it stuck. I was coming from the other direction just before sunup walking to a spot to squirrel hunt. I believe I set a new worlds record for the 2 mile run while carrying a shotgun. Too bad no one timed it.

When I was 17 I stumbled onto a moonshine still. It was inoperable and had been destroyed when I found it, but it had been in operation fairly recently. Had I gone to that spot the previous hunting season who knows.

I've also encountered several guys driving, camping or just hanging out on public land where I hunt that just left me with an uneasy feeling.

Never seen a big cat in the wild but were told one had raided a campground earlier in the summer where we were staying near Creede Colorado. It killed some chickens belonging to the owners.

Black bear are common around here and I see them often. I've never felt threatened by one. The biggest problem is people feeding them either deliberately or inadvertently. Once they associate people with food they will expect it from other hikers and can be aggressive.

Because of all of the above when in the woods or driving to remote hunting/hiking spots I carry a handgun anywhere legal. I did buy some bear spray a few years ago for those places where a gun isn't legal. I've always felt that the bigger concern was 2 legged predators and for that reason I've always preferred a semi over a revolver. The lighter, more compact size outweighs magnum power of a revolver for the type of threat I see as most likely. And I decided a G29 in 10mm would be the perfect compromise. But anymore I'm seeing enough to make me think that a properly loaded 9mm isn't a bad choice.

I find this study very informative.

Handgun or Pistol Defense Against Bear Attack: 73 cases, 96% Effective (ammoland.com)

Good post!

here is the update to the article you posted…same author, more data:

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/

 

[Speedo66]

I have a feeling there were 3 sales of animal repellent spray in the Ft. Collins area a couple of days ago.

 

[WrongHanded]

I haven't watched the video yet (at work), but I will do (when time and bandwidth allow).

I believe I know the area this happened. And if it's where I think it is, I too have made that pre-dawn hike. That "Park" is an odd place to me. It's packed with people during the day. Mountain bikers, trail runners with earbuds in, groups with small children, poorly behaved dogs, groups of college kids listening to music from their cellphone speakers or just shouting constantly. It feels like a city park. Very casual, very busy, very safe, right in the middle of society.

But after the people leave, the sun sets, and the animals have all night to reclaim it, it feels like a very different place. I once had a dark shadow approach me out of the gloom as I walked a trail in the wee early hours. I clicked on a flashlight to see a mule deer. Which casual walked directly across the path in front of me - so close I could have literally stretched out and touched it - like I was nothing special at all. The animals are just not scared of people there.

The girls were very lucky they saw the Lion before it decided to move, and they reacted very intelligently. But in my opinion, they seriously underestimated the place they were entering. Likely because during the day it is full of people, and feels like a very different place.

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

I agree that parks are vastly more dangerous places as far as animal attacks go. Since no one is allowed to shoot at the animals they are less fearful of man, similar to cities with strict gun control laws.

 

[mcb]

The whole being situationally awareness skills are more useful than the unlikely animal attack encounter. I do not live in bear country but still practice the situational awareness because it makes me a better hunter. A hunter that can still-hunt and close on whitetail deer in heavy cover, moving on the ground, is also very unlikely to let a predator get the drop on him. The same woods skills that make you a good still hunter will help you locate dangers in advance.

 

[Flintknapper]

Oh man.....I WANT one of those cardboard charging bears...!

Glad the girls were alright. They did well for what they had....and not expecting something like that to happen. My Daughter and her friends have hiked and camped that same area and others.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I don't think about this very often (if at all) as I don't live in bear country.

The last time I visited a place where you can see a lot of bears was when I was vacationing in the Jackson Hole/Yellowstone area. Like most tourists visiting the region who plan on doing some hiking, were sold some bear spray and given rudimentary training but I was banking on statistics and probabilities to keep me and the family from becoming Yogi snacks.

To that point I did a little googling and came across this:

Bears Have Killed Eight People in Yellowstone Park Since 1872
(Source: National Park Service)

• Comparatively, the park had 121 drownings, 26 suicides, and 21 burns in the same period.
• You have a higher chance of dying from a falling tree, an avalanche, or getting struck by lightning than a Yellowstone bear attack — one in 2.7 million.
• If you remain in a developed area, the chances decrease to one in 59 million. In contrast, hiking backcountry will increase your chance of a grizzly bear attack to approximately 1 in 232,000.

Between 2–5 People in North America Die From Attacks by Bears Annually
(Source: The Alaska Life)

• Since 1900, 61 people have been killed by a black bear in North America. These are the rarest attacks compared to the ones by grizzly bears.
• In contrast, grizzlies are 20 times more dangerous than the black bear.
• You’re 425,000 times more likely to die from heart disease than a bear attack.

I don't think about this very often (if at all) as I don't live in bear country.

The last time I visited a place where you can see a lot of bears was when I was vacationing in the Jackson Hole/Yellowstone area. Like most tourists visiting the region who plan on doing some hiking, were sold some bear spray and given rudimentary training but I was banking on statistics and probabilities to keep me and the family from becoming Yogi snacks.

To that point I did a little googling and came across this:

Bears Have Killed Eight People in Yellowstone Park Since 1872
(Source: National Park Service)

• Comparatively, the park had 121 drownings, 26 suicides, and 21 burns in the same period.
• You have a higher chance of dying from a falling tree, an avalanche, or getting struck by lightning than a Yellowstone bear attack — one in 2.7 million.
• If you remain in a developed area, the chances decrease to one in 59 million. In contrast, hiking backcountry will increase your chance of a grizzly bear attack to approximately 1 in 232,000.

Between 2–5 People in North America Die From Attacks by Bears Annually
(Source: The Alaska Life)

• Since 1900, 61 people have been killed by a black bear in North America. These are the rarest attacks compared to the ones by grizzly bears.
• In contrast, grizzlies are 20 times more dangerous than the black bear.
• You’re 425,000 times more likely to die from heart disease than a bear attack.

I think that it was Jim Fowler who spoke at a conference once about why humans are so psychologically affected by predator attacks and are so hyper aware of predators as a threat. His conclusion was that humans have been prey animals for vast majority of our existence. Awareness and fear of predators is in our DNA. It’s instinctual for us.

There was a time when as a human our highest mortality was from predators. We were in that state of being for a lot longer than our current status as an alpha predator.

He concluded with some stats about auto accidents and mortalities. About 3700 people a day die in auto accidents world wide or approximately 1.37 million a year. Yet we don’t think twice about getting in a car and driving. And auto fatalities are hardly even news worthy. but man if a human gets munched by a predator it’s frontline news! We all want to hear about it and we all have a plan to avoid and protect ourselves from predators.

I think Jim was 100% correct in his assessment. We haven’t been getting killed by cars long enough for it to become an instinctual fear. But we got eaten for long enough that it did.

 

[WrongHanded]

Turns out I'd already seen the video previously.

On the gear side, the biggest issues I see are a lack of consistency with where he's carrying the pistol and spray. I also prefer to carry bear spray (if I have spray I have a pistol too) on my non-dominant side just as I do pepper spray. The less dexterous hand readies the tool that needs less precision, leaving the dominant hand ready for a quick and practiced draw stroke and first shot with the tool that need more precision.

 

[Dibbs]

I've always advocated a 6 foot walking staff, for anyone, serious about hiking. There's a couple reasons:

1. First, there's a matter of balance, especially in rough or leaf covered terrain. A walking stick can help you preserve your balance, and save you from a nasty fall.
2. Second, this device is very helpful, in any encounter. You take one step backward, and, now, you not only have your balance, there is a 6 foot staff, between you, and any animal in your path.

OTOH, large cats need to be respected. They are not stupid, and they are very efficient hunters. Had that mountain lion not lost it's nerve, and attacked, it likely would have gone for the throat, and one of those poor girls would have bled out, in a matter of seconds. This surely isn't about
having a pistol with you, (or which one) a large cat can easily stalk you, and strike, before you can react, in many instances.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've always advocated a 6 foot walking staff, for anyone, serious about hiking. There's a couple reasons:

1. First, there's a matter of balance, especially in rough or leaf covered terrain. A walking stick can help you preserve your balance, and save you from a nasty fall.
2. Second, this device is very helpful, in any encounter. You take one step backward, and, now, you not only have your balance, there is a 6 foot staff, between you, and any animal in your path.

OTOH, large cats need to be respected. They are not stupid, and they are very efficient hunters. Had that mountain lion not lost it's nerve, and attacked, it likely would have gone for the throat, and one of those poor girls would have bled out, in a matter of seconds. This surely isn't about
having a pistol with you, (or which one) a large cat can easily stalk you, and strike, before you can react, in many instances.

If that cat had been serious about it the girls would have never seen him, they are extremely effective ambush hunters. I’m guessing it was a young cat and not an experienced hunter.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Turns out I'd already seen the video previously.

On the gear side, the biggest issues I see are a lack of consistency with where he's carrying the pistol and spray. I also prefer to carry bear spray (if I have spray I have a pistol too) on my non-dominant side just as I do pepper spray. The less dexterous hand readies the tool that needs less precision, leaving the dominant hand ready for a quick and practiced draw stroke and first shot with the tool that need more precision.

Where do you carry your sidearm when you’re humping a backpack with a waist belt? I’ve got a chest rig and sometimes I carry it attached to the pack’s waist belt. I’ve never carried bear spray but I might start.

 

[WrongHanded]

Where do you carry your sidearm when you’re humping a backpack with a waist belt? I’ve got a chest rig and sometimes I carry it attached to the packs waist belt.

When I use a pack with a waist belt, I like to carry my sidearm string side in a Wilderness Safepacker, which the pack belt threads through. I also use one of their light shoulder straps which stays just a little loose whilst the pack is on. When the pack comes off, the Safepacker is retained on my person via the shoulder strap. If the pack is off for any duration, my pants belt gets threaded through the Safepacker for better retention.

They're not the fastest to draw from, but practice makes it an unconscious effort (this weekend's camping trip proved that to me, though the story isn't at all exciting). The buckle is the hardest part, as it must be located by touch. Though the holster can be carried unsnapped depending on the terrain.

I'm a fan of the design and have multiple sizes for different guns. But they may not be the right solution for everyone. I have tested them with a shot timer at the range. Fractionally slower than concealed OWB or AIWB, but pretty close.

 

[H&Hhunter]

When I use a pack with a waist belt, I like to carry my sidearm string side in a Wilderness Safepacker, which the pack belt threads through. I also use one of their light shoulder straps which stays just a little loose whilst the pack is on. When the pack comes off, the Safepacker is retained on my person via the shoulder strap. If the pack is off for any duration, my pants belt gets threaded through the Safepacker for better retention.

They're not the fastest to draw from, but practice makes it an unconscious effort (this weekend's camping trip proved that to me, though the story isn't at all exciting). The buckle is the hardest part, as it must be located by touch. Though the holster can be carried unsnapped depending on the terrain.

I'm a fan on the design and have multiple sizes for different guns. But they may not be the right solution for everyone. I have tested them with a shot timer at the range. Fractionally slower than concealed OWB or AIWB, but pretty close.

I’ve got a Safepacker that I use in a similar fashion.

 

[Barry the Bear]

I typically carry my Taurus 605 when out and about, while I do live in Puma country it's not the animal I am most likely to deal with feral dogs, hogs, and snakes are much more prevalent as well as south of the border critters that are running Texas ragged but that's a convo for another time. I do keep a speed strips with snake shot with me, .357 should be good enough for both hogs and dogs and if there is a puma then that to, if everything just goes super south there is always my Bowie knife either to make a last stand or to make sure I bleed out quickly before the meal part begins.