FrankieJames7
Member
Judge denied the preliminary injunction, and the atf changed the rule. Making so called "corrections" just days before it goes into effect, tomorrow
Will 80% lowers need to be sold at the gun store?
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FrankieJames7
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The funny part is, no one knows yet lol. The final rule has been published and read, and this morning the atf changed the rule. So 1 day before the rule goes into effect they change it. That has also been published. I will link them soon.
But, the US attorney claimed in a lawsuit that only kits are regulated. However, in the statute it basically makes it impossible to make an 80 percent and sell it without criminalizing the seller. In my opinion, I'm not a lawyer but I have been to jail and fought against the cops when they did an illegal search and seizure on me, if you sell an 80 percent lower and ANYONE who gets a hold of that 80 percent lower and builds a gun with the other kit parts, you will need to be an ffl to do that. Basically the law says if you sell 80 percent lowers you have to as the seller make sure the buyer will never turn it into a firearm.
The doj as through attorney reese's pieces candy claims only kits are regulated firearms, however I believe that will just be one interpretation for that specific prosecutor. Another attorney can say all 80 percent lowers are firearms. Again I am not a lawyer just what I believe
Agree with you, still some confusion and gray areas. As for me, as of today, I am considering any 80% frame a firearm, and treating it like any other firearm as far as buying and selling. Not worth getting into a legal fight with the government - I can't afford the lawyer's fees and don't want to go to jail. And it's not that big a deal for me anyway.
Unfortunately, I expect more of these types of restrictive rules from the ATF over the next 2 1/2 years. (Or longer if the Dems hold onto the White House.)
Unfortunately, I expect more of these types of restrictive rules from the ATF over the next 2 1/2 years. (Or longer if the Dems hold onto the White House.)
LiveLife
Member
Not according to page 14 of "technically corrected" ATF's final rule - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/download
Not a receiver: A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver.
So to this layperson (I am not a lawyer), ATF's new rule to serialize and go through FFL process applies to "80% kits" sold by vendors with jigs/templates, tools and instructions but not to 80% paper weights - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/17-states-join-goa-gof-and-sue-atf’s-new-firearms-rule-on-80-percent-kits.908730/#post-12389554
And page 21 of the new rule doesn't change the existing understanding of individuals completing 80% paper weights into firearms ATF calls "Privately Made Firearm (PMF)" further confirming ATF's new rule applies to vendors selling "80% kits", not to individual customers buying 80% paper weights and/or completing their paper weights already on hand into firearms:
- "Does not prohibit an individual from making their own PMF."
- "Does not mandate unlicensed persons mark their own PMF."
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Thank you, good clarifying info. Although I would still be cautious for now, but that is just me.
As an aside: Polymer80 is now selling rail kits for their 80% frames for $55. These parts used to come with their frames, and they used to send you a replacement rail if you mucked it up.
Not sure if they always sold these separately or not, but I think I see where they are going with this.
https://www.polymer80.com/partsandaccessories/partskits
As an aside: Polymer80 is now selling rail kits for their 80% frames for $55. These parts used to come with their frames, and they used to send you a replacement rail if you mucked it up.
Not sure if they always sold these separately or not, but I think I see where they are going with this.
https://www.polymer80.com/partsandaccessories/partskits
LiveLife
Member
So looks like according to ATF, vendors can sell 80% paper weights by themselves or jigs/templates/tools/instructions separately but not together in an "80% kit".
And if "80% kits" are sold by vendors, they now require serializing and FFL process.
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dogtown tom
Member
Clearly not true.
Again, false.
Basically, again, not true.
Where are you getting this information?
LiveLife
Member
I agree ... To me, it's fairly clear what ATF published as to what is not receiver/firearm on page 14 - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/downloadClearly not true.
Again, false.
Basically, again, not true.
Where are you getting this information?
A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver [sold] without ... instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools ... is not a receiver.
And on page 21, when individuals complete the 80% paper weights into receivers/firearms, serialization is not required:
The new rule:
- Does not prohibit an individual from making their own PMF.
- Does not mandate unlicensed persons mark their own PMF.
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FrankieJames7
Member
It says right there "possessed with" as one of the terms.Clearly not true.
Again, false.
Basically, again, not true.
Where are you getting this information?
Where are you getting your reading comprehension? Did you complete 2nd grade English?
FrankieJames7
Member
Right there is the term, is not sold with or possessed with.
Meaning if you buy an 80 percent lower and you can complete it into a firearm with the rest of the kit parts, that 80 percent is a firearm. Basically putting the burden on the manufactures to prove the 80 percent is not a firearm in that sale by proving the buyer has no kit parts. Violators will be charged with conspiracy or structuring.
FrankieJames7
Member
Here is the rule ammendment,
And the original publishing
Changes made in August 2022 : https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...er-and-identification-of-firearms-corrections
Original Rule : https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...me-or-receiver-and-identification-of-firearms
I am not sure if the atf updated their original rule posting or not, but I got that link from a Washington gun law youtube video done early this summer so it was way before the changes
And the original publishing
Changes made in August 2022 : https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...er-and-identification-of-firearms-corrections
Original Rule : https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...me-or-receiver-and-identification-of-firearms
I am not sure if the atf updated their original rule posting or not, but I got that link from a Washington gun law youtube video done early this summer so it was way before the changes
LiveLife
Member
ATF "technically corrected" final rule states vendor can lawfully sell 80% paper weights as it is not a firearm on page 14 - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/download
A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed [paper weight] that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver [firearm]
If the paper weight is not a qualifying firearm according to ATF, I am not aware of such requirement.
There are other "kits" that are not regulated firearm as mentioned on page 12:
The term “firearm” does not include a weapon, including a weapon parts kit, in which the frame or receiver of such weapon is “destroyed” as described in the definition “frame or receiver.”
Again, we can all read the ATF "technically corrected" final rule ourselves and it says on page 14:
A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver [firearm]
N555
Member
That's the point.
The gun grabbers are going to be like "we got ghost guns banned", do a victory lap and dislocate their shoulders patting them selves on the back.
Meanwhile we're still buying 80%s in about 47 states and 3d printing them literally everywhere.
LiveLife
Member
Buying and completing them lawfully without serializing as defined by ATF's latest rule on page 21
CapnMac
Member
Actually, they were formed in 1935 as a result of NFA '34. They were merely a tax-collecting Bureau of the IRS until 1968, after which they gained broad-ranging powers from AGUSA.
One might recall who POTUS was in 1993 when Ruby Ridge & Waco occurred.
After 1995 and OKC, they officially added the "E" to BATFE.
When DHS was ginned up after 9-11, the Agency really gained some teeth.
ATF has been using the CFR to "make the rules" for eight decades now. They are not really "suddenly" anything.
They went 13 years without an appointed Director until the recent nominee was approved.
FrankieJames7
Member
The atf says their made up law is, if you possess the equipment to make them into working lowers, every 80 percent lower is a firearm. Their attorneys claim something else for now, but they will change it in the future. Since this is the statute, it won't be long before a ghost gun manufacturer gets charged with selling firearms with out a license, either criminally or civil lawsuit. They are pulling a fast one, and have you duped
Okay now that things have been cleared up some.
YES you can still buy just the unfinished (80%) frame or receiver WITHOUT having to go through a FFL as long as nothing else comes with the frame or receiver. That is clear as day.
Again, the new ruling does NOT ban individuals from making their own firearms (PMF's). And the new ruing does NOT require that individuals mark PMF's with a serial number. What the new ruling does do is it defines what a firearm is, in this case a 80% frame/receiver that includes tools, jigs, or instructions to finish it.
The new ruling aisles further defines who is a FFL and what all FFL's need to do with PMF's that come into their possession. And possession means that the FFL must log the PMF into their Acquisition and Disposal Books (bound books). So if a Type 1 or Type 2 FFL takes in a PMF on trade or purchase, it must be entered into their bound books AND a serial number must be applied. Now if a gunsmith (which is still a Type 1 FFL) receives a PMF but returns it to the original owner/builder on the same day, then it does NOT have to be entered into the bound books NOR does it have to have a serial number apply. Now if the gunsmith keeps the PMF overnight then it must be entered into their bound book and a serial number applied to the PMF.
And the whole 80% term is a made up term by manufacturers. The ATF has never stated a percentage ass far what what is or is not a firearm. They only state that a certain amount of work must be completed by the private individual.
I highly suggest rereading all of the links that myself, @dogtown tom and @LiveLife have posted. Some of us that are giving you the answers are either active FFL holders or retired FFL holders.
YES you can still buy just the unfinished (80%) frame or receiver WITHOUT having to go through a FFL as long as nothing else comes with the frame or receiver. That is clear as day.
Again, the new ruling does NOT ban individuals from making their own firearms (PMF's). And the new ruing does NOT require that individuals mark PMF's with a serial number. What the new ruling does do is it defines what a firearm is, in this case a 80% frame/receiver that includes tools, jigs, or instructions to finish it.
The new ruling aisles further defines who is a FFL and what all FFL's need to do with PMF's that come into their possession. And possession means that the FFL must log the PMF into their Acquisition and Disposal Books (bound books). So if a Type 1 or Type 2 FFL takes in a PMF on trade or purchase, it must be entered into their bound books AND a serial number must be applied. Now if a gunsmith (which is still a Type 1 FFL) receives a PMF but returns it to the original owner/builder on the same day, then it does NOT have to be entered into the bound books NOR does it have to have a serial number apply. Now if the gunsmith keeps the PMF overnight then it must be entered into their bound book and a serial number applied to the PMF.
And the whole 80% term is a made up term by manufacturers. The ATF has never stated a percentage ass far what what is or is not a firearm. They only state that a certain amount of work must be completed by the private individual.
I highly suggest rereading all of the links that myself, @dogtown tom and @LiveLife have posted. Some of us that are giving you the answers are either active FFL holders or retired FFL holders.
dogtown tom
Member
Well, since you seemed to keep digging your hole.....
Thats absolute nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Read it again....nonsense.
The new definition clearly allows 80% to be sold. If sold as an 80% by itself its not a firearm. If sold with a jig or "kit" ATF will consider it a firearm and there are requirements on markings and who can sell that "kit". Does that make it "impossible"? No sir.
Again, wrong. An "80%" IS NOT A FIREARM BY ITSELF. Sell together with a "kit" to facilitate the making and the kit IS a firearm.
Nonsense to the point of horsehockey.
ATF clearly states what they will consider to be a firearm, and an 80% by itself they do not.
dogtown tom
Member
That IS NOT what ATF has stated.
What do you care? You don't understand this regulation, what comes next shouldnt matter should it?
F-111 John
Member
The ATF included the word "possessed" in their description of the difference between an 80% lower and a readily converted firearm frame or receiver.
If a prohibited person possesses an untouched, unfinished 80% lower, and also possesses the jigs, tools, or instructions necessary to complete the lower, THE PROHIBITED PERSON IS IN POSSESSION OF A FIREARM FRAME OR RECEIVER and could be charged as such.
Guns&engines
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Wouldn't that also mean that any business that sells unfinished receivers must not possess or sell any other parts, jigs, or instructions? So to sell unfinished unserialized receivers, they must sell and possess nothing else. I don't see how anyone could remain in that business!
Wouldn't that also mean that any ffl with unfinished receivers in their possession must immediately serialize every one of them if they also possess any other components in their inventory that could be used to complete such a receiver?
I don't see how we will continue to be able to purchase these because no one will remain in business to purchase from. Thus a ban without an actual ban.
Wouldn't that also mean that any ffl with unfinished receivers in their possession must immediately serialize every one of them if they also possess any other components in their inventory that could be used to complete such a receiver?
I don't see how we will continue to be able to purchase these because no one will remain in business to purchase from. Thus a ban without an actual ban.
dogtown tom
Member
Yes, it does. That does not change my statement. FrankieJames7 wrote "if you possess the equipment to make them into working lowers, every 80 percent lower is a firearm". Thats simply not true.
Example:
You possess a jig, instructions, or a "kit" that allows you to make your own firearm from 80% lowers.
You go to Bob's 80Percenters.com and purchase an 80% lower......by itself, its NOT A FIREARM as defined by federal law, now or in the future. Bob's 80Percenters.com is not selling firearms and is not required to hold an FFL because he isn't selling those 80% lowers with a kit.
Because its NOT A FIREARM, Bob's 80Percenters.com can ship it directly to your door. You don't fill out a 4473, no NICS, no paperwork, nothing. If you bought that 80% lower at a gun show or even from your local gun dealer........IT AINT A GUN!!!!
Your new 80% lower arrives, once you are in possession, that 80% lower is considered a firearm because you are also in possession of the tools, jigs, etc necessary to complete it.
And????
While that statement appears nowhere in the https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/download , it isn't shocking, being that the definition is the definition. And those items meeting the definition of "firear," in federal law are already illegal for a felon to possess.
dogtown tom
Member
That depends. ATF is clear that an unfinished receiver sold with certain tools or as a kit may be considered a firearm, that would require an FFL by the seller. His sales of those kits with unfinished receiver would be the same as any other firearm.
Plenty of those 80% receiver/frame companies sold stuff without a jig. It was the next step in getting a buck to sell templates, jigs and ultimately complete kits that required next to no skill to complete.
No.
Once you have one template or jig.....do you really need another?
What used to be an all in one kit from a seller, would now see one seller for the jig/tools/templates and a seperate seller for the 80% frame/receiver.
AlexanderA
Member
So nobody will sell "80%" lowers as "kits" any more. They will just sell them by themselves. What, of substance, has really changed?
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