FrankieJames7
Member
Judge denied the preliminary injunction, and the atf changed the rule. Making so called "corrections" just days before it goes into effect, tomorrow
The funny part is, no one knows yet lol. The final rule has been published and read, and this morning the atf changed the rule. So 1 day before the rule goes into effect they change it. That has also been published. I will link them soon.So what is the final rule then? An 80% frame is considered a firearm even if sold separately, without jig, tools, etc?
Not according to page 14 of "technically corrected" ATF's final rule - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/downloadSo what is the final rule then? An 80% frame is considered a firearm even if sold separately, without jig, tools, etc?atf changed the rule. Making so called "corrections" just days before it goes into effect
So looks like according to ATF, vendors can sell 80% paper weights by themselves or jigs/templates/tools/instructions separately but not together in an "80% kit".Thank you, good clarifying info.
Polymer80 ... I think I see where they are going with this.
Clearly not true.....But, the US attorney claimed in a lawsuit that only kits are regulated. However, in the statute it basically makes it impossible to make an 80 percent and sell it without criminalizing the seller.
Again, false......if you sell an 80 percent lower and ANYONE who gets a hold of that 80 percent lower and builds a gun with the other kit parts, you will need to be an ffl to do that.
Basically, again, not true.Basically the law says if you sell 80 percent lowers you have to as the seller make sure the buyer will never turn it into a firearm.
I agree ... To me, it's fairly clear what ATF published as to what is not receiver/firearm on page 14 - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/downloadClearly not true.
Again, false.
Basically, again, not true.
Where are you getting this information?
It says right there "possessed with" as one of the terms.Clearly not true.
Again, false.
Basically, again, not true.
Where are you getting this information?
Not according to page 14 of "technically corrected" ATF's final rule - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/download
Not a receiver: A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver.So to this layperson (I am not a lawyer), ATF's new rule to serialize and go through FFL process applies to "80% kits" sold by vendors with jigs/templates, tools and instructions but not to 80% paper weights - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/17-states-join-goa-gof-and-sue-atf’s-new-firearms-rule-on-80-percent-kits.908730/#post-12389554
And page 21 of the new rule doesn't change the existing understanding of individuals completing 80% paper weights into firearms ATF calls "Privately Made Firearm (PMF)" further confirming ATF's new rule applies to vendors selling "80% kits", not to individual customers buying 80% paper weights and/or completing their paper weights already on hand into firearms:
- "Does not prohibit an individual from making their own PMF."
- "Does not mandate unlicensed persons mark their own PMF."
ATF "technically corrected" final rule states vendor can lawfully sell 80% paper weights as it is not a firearm on page 14 - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/downloadUS attorney claimed ... it basically makes it impossible to make an 80 percent and sell it without criminalizing the seller.
If the paper weight is not a qualifying firearm according to ATF, I am not aware of such requirement.the law says if you sell 80 percent lowers you have to as the seller make sure the buyer will never turn it into a firearm.
There are other "kits" that are not regulated firearm as mentioned on page 12:The doj as through attorney reese's pieces candy claims only kits are regulated firearms
Again, we can all read the ATF "technically corrected" final rule ourselves and it says on page 14:Another attorney can say all 80 percent lowers are firearms. Again I am not a lawyer just what I believe
That's the point.the new ghost gun ban is confusing.
Buying and completing them lawfully without serializing as defined by ATF's latest rule on page 21Meanwhile we're still buying 80%
The new rule:
- Does not prohibit an individual from making their own PMF.
- Does not mandate unlicensed persons mark their own PMF.
Actually, they were formed in 1935 as a result of NFA '34. They were merely a tax-collecting Bureau of the IRS until 1968, after which they gained broad-ranging powers from AGUSA.who empowered the atf,
ATF "technically corrected" final rule states vendor can lawfully sell 80% paper weights as it is not a firearm on page 14 - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/overview-final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification/download
A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed [paper weight] that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver [firearm]
If the paper weight is not a qualifying firearm according to ATF, I am not aware of such requirement.
There are other "kits" that are not regulated firearm as mentioned on page 12:
The term “firearm” does not include a weapon, including a weapon parts kit, in which the frame or receiver of such weapon is “destroyed” as described in the definition “frame or receiver.”
Again, we can all read the ATF "technically corrected" final rule ourselves and it says on page 14:
A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver [firearm]
Well, since you seemed to keep digging your hole.....It says right there "possessed with" as one of the terms.
Where are you getting your reading comprehension? Did you complete 2nd grade English?
Thats absolute nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Read it again....nonsense.FrankieJames7 ....But, the US attorney claimed in a lawsuit that only kits are regulated. However, in the statute it basically makes it impossible to make an 80 percent and sell it without criminalizing the seller.
Again, wrong. An "80%" IS NOT A FIREARM BY ITSELF. Sell together with a "kit" to facilitate the making and the kit IS a firearm....if you sell an 80 percent lower and ANYONE who gets a hold of that 80 percent lower and builds a gun with the other kit parts, you will need to be an ffl to do that.
Nonsense to the point of horsehockey.Basically the law says if you sell 80 percent lowers you have to as the seller make sure the buyer will never turn it into a firearm.
That IS NOT what ATF has stated.The atf says their made up law is, if you possess the equipment to make them into working lowers, every 80 percent lower is a firearm.
What do you care? You don't understand this regulation, what comes next shouldnt matter should it?Their attorneys claim something else for now, but they will change it in the future. Since this is the statute, it won't be long before a ghost gun manufacturer gets charged with selling firearms with out a license, either criminally or civil lawsuit. They are pulling a fast one, and have you duped
That IS NOT what ATF has stated.
Yes, it does. That does not change my statement. FrankieJames7 wrote "if you possess the equipment to make them into working lowers, every 80 percent lower is a firearm". Thats simply not true.The ATF included the word "possessed" in their description of the difference between an 80% lower and a readily converted firearm frame or receiver.
And????If a prohibited person possesses an untouched, unfinished 80% lower, and also possesses the jigs, tools, or instructions necessary to complete the lower, THE PROHIBITED PERSON IS IN POSSESSION OF A FIREARM FRAME OR RECEIVER and could be charged as such.
That depends. ATF is clear that an unfinished receiver sold with certain tools or as a kit may be considered a firearm, that would require an FFL by the seller. His sales of those kits with unfinished receiver would be the same as any other firearm.Wouldn't that also mean that any business that sells unfinished receivers must not possess or sell any other parts, jigs, or instructions? So to sell unfinished unserialized receivers, they must sell and possess nothing else. I don't see how anyone could remain in that business!
No.Wouldn't that also mean that any ffl with unfinished receivers in their possession must immediately serialize every one of them if they also possess any other components in their inventory that could be used to complete such a receiver?
Once you have one template or jig.....do you really need another?I don't see how we will continue to be able to purchase these because no one will remain in business to purchase from. Thus a ban without an actual ban.