Will they really take it away?

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It depends. If the attack is with a knife, and unexpected and skilled, there is little chance the knife will be disarmed.

If the defense is with a knife...there are a lot of variables. A lot of it has to do with distancing.
 
As John succinctly put it, and some others have recounted, "there are a lot of variables".

For ever rule of thumb there's a counter example.
 
Normally I think the whole "they will use your weapon against you" thing is complete BS. It does happen from time to time but I think it's a major exception to the rule. It reminds me of something I once saw. This might be long-winded and boring but anyways....

I witnessed someone get cut with their own knife a number of years ago. I was staying with this girl who lived in a sort of rough neighborhood. There was a bar down the street that always had problems. I guess there was an altercation at the bar and it moved up the street right in front of our building. I heard a commotion outside so I looked out the window and saw 8 or 9 ridiculously drunk people in the road. 2 guys looked like they were about to duke it out. I decided to go on to the porch to see exactly what was happening.

As soon as I opened the door I heard someone yell "You're going to stab me (expletives deleted)"!?!?!! One guy had a small knife in his hand. The other guy was just about within arms reach of him. They were yelling at each other and suddenly the guy without the knife punched the knife wielding guy right in the face. It took him totally by surprise and he fell down instantly, dropping the knife. I thought for a second he was knocked out cold. While he was getting up the other guy grabbed the knife and they began to scuffle a bit. It was broken up by the other people about 5-10 seconds later. I didn't see him get stabbed but there was a good amount of blood on him. Turns out in the scuffle he ended up getting cut with his own knife.

I believe the guy without the knife was the same guy who drove his van directly into the neighbor's house a week or so later. He was so drunk he only made it 100 or so yards up the road before taking out a few parked cars and doing serious damage to the house. That was interesting. Some people are just crazy. I don't live there anymore....thank goodness.
 
My fear is that I will not be able to open the folder in time, once the fight is on. Im more confident in my ability to produce an OC unit and spray the BG.
 
I just brought up that example because the discussion seemed to be stuck in the "magic marker grappling" ditch, as most knife defense situations seem to go.

I think we tend to limit our thought processes to our skillsets because it's what we know.

If you take Carl's situation and face Carl with a knife against Carl with an ironwood cane, what happens?

We haven't even broached the idea of knife vs. blunt force trauma weapon because no one here has posted the notion. Yet, a number of us like the idea of the cane.

Why do we always go back to the magic marker hand to hand drills when we carry canes and such?

I have more questions than answers, I'm afraid.

My daily carry includes a kubotan and a knife in addition to my gun. I've also trained for a number of years in AiKiDo, just so you guys know where I'm coming from with all this. I'm somewhere between ninja and noob, like most.
 
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but if someone is truly determined to get a knife away from you and is willing to sacrifice all to do it, they will succeed.
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That statement makes way too many assumptions.

:cool:
 
meef - ill say it again, but differently - if a man is willing to voluntarily give up his own life to take that knife from you... he will do it. This means that the person doesn't care about their own life and is willing to do whatever it takes to get that knife. Most people defending themselves aren't prepared to handle someone who is willing to make that trade or even worse knows they are making that trade and are eager to do so. I know I wouldn't know how to handle a person that would purposely impale themselves on my knife and then start scratch, biting, headbutting, etc while holding me close enough that I couldn't withdraw the knife. In all reality, who would handle that easily. I have been to war, and I wasn't scared of the guys shooting because they were afraid to get shot. A mental patient on the other hand can have almost inhuman strength and speed as well as a inhuman focus on a single task to require multiple large and experienced people to just subdue. Those mental patients are worried about self injury. That same level of focus, combined with the intent of taking something from you or hurting you is just about as unstoppable as it gets. It would require almost a deranged joy in hurting that person just to keep them off you.

Edit - most people are prepared to handle that level of commitment, but then again very rarely will the aggressor have that level commitment.
 
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I agree with the previous post, except think he meant to say "most people aren't prepared..."
 
Psychotic

. . . if a man is willing to voluntarily give up his own life to take that knife from you . . .
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Perhaps another way of saying this is "if a man simply has no regard for his own safety," or even said as "if a man simply doesn't care what happens to him;" in other words, it may not be that he's made a conscious decision that he's "willing to die" but in a psychotic episode or drug-induced rage, damage and harm to self may simply not enter into the computation.

A rational man may step back from a displayed blade. Once rationality is not longer a factor, you can't count on that.

 
Sutemi in aikido refers to a type of sacrifice throw, but it's used to refer to "trading cuts" in some budo systems: in other words, an absolute willingness to give up personal safety and perhaps life to destroy your opponent. Here is an explanation on a kendo blog.

John
 
Self Control

Yeah, that's the other side of the coin.

That's more self control that I believe I could muster under most circumstances.

I can imagine it, I'm just not sure I could *do* it.

"Hmm, okay, if I take his thrust on my left side, I can get at his upper thorax and take him out . . ."

Guy would have to be made of sterner stuff than I am.

 
Or you just have to be empty.

Don't misunderstand- I don't mean without soul. I mean, so totally in the moment that there is no worry, indeed no ability even, to worry about the next instant. You are only duty- giri- and reflexes.

John
 
Or you just have to be empty.

Don't misunderstand- I don't mean without soul. I mean, so totally in the moment that there is no worry, indeed no ability even, to worry about the next instant. You are only duty- giri- and reflexes.

John
Click to expand...

It's very important to note that people can be completely committed to the act without being psychotic. Thanks for mentioning that, John.
 
Thank you.

I come from a family who has been known to have "big anger"- in other words, I do, unfortunately, understand what it's like to be so angry that you don't care what happens to you as long as you get the other guy. But when you train enough, sometimes you don't have time to feel during the action/reaction part of the loop. At that instant, good training is essential.
 
The three times I've been attacked with a knife have all ended with me not receiving a scratch, and holding the knife. So it's possible.

That said, I'd hate to try for number four; a good knifer is a scary thing. None of the three I met were anywhere near 'good', and didn't really grasp the difference between 'displaying' a knife and 'using' a knife well enough.

Wave a knife at me, maybe I'll take it away. Cuddle up and start stabbing me, though, and I'm probably going to just bleed and sob loudly. ;)

Larry
 
scythefwd -

You said: "but if someone is truly determined to get a knife away from you and is willing to sacrifice all to do it, they will succeed."

I replied: "That statement makes way too many assumptions."

So then you said: "ill say it again, but differently - if a man is willing to voluntarily give up his own life to take that knife from you... he will do it. "

So I'll say: Maybe. Maybe not.

Your statements imply that if someone is determined enough (and perhaps psycho enough), it's a stone cold given that you're losing your knife.

Respectfully, I just don't buy that.

There are simply too many factors involved.

Who is bigger; stronger; faster; more skilled; more psycho... etc., etc.

I can assure you that if I've somehow gotten in a situation where I'm wielding a knife against someone who is "truly determined and willing to sacrifice all to do it", you can bet your retirement fund that I will be equally determined and willing to sacrifice all to see that he doesn't.

And why wouldn't I? The alternative seems like a seriously losing proposition, no?

You also stated: "This means that the person doesn't care about their own life and is willing to do whatever it takes to get that knife."

The fact is, they can only do whatever they are capable of doing. Maybe they can; maybe they can't.

There aren't any guarantees or absolutes. When the fight is over, then you can make statements with certainty - not before.
 
Age and treachery win over youth and strength every time. Grab my knife and take it from me and I will laugh at you as you die.No man, no matter how big or how strong can survive a good throat slashing.
 
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