Winchester 1866 - Why brass receiver?

[wobble]

Just purchased an Uberti Win 1866 Yellowboy carbine and am curious about a question that I haven't been able to find an answer to.

Why did Winchester use brass (think it was actually bronze) on the 1860 Henry and 1866 Yellowboy?

I know that iron and steel were in short supply during the Civil War. It's the reason some Confederate pistols were made with brass frames. But I have never read anywhere that it was the reason Winchester chose it. It makes for an especially good-looking gun but I doubt that was the reason. Does anyone know?

 

[Jim Watson]

Stronger or at least more consistent than the wrought iron - mild steel of the day?
Easier to machine with 19th century equipment?
I don't know for sure.
But bear in mind that there were a few iron framed Henrys and a very few obscure transitional models between 1866 and 1873 with iron frames. There had to be some reason to use gun metal bronze when they had tried iron.

 

[wobble]

Yeah, the history of Winchester is very interesting. I have ordered a 1952 copy of Harold Williamson's "Winchester: The Gun that Won the West" and look forward to getting some answers to this and other questions. I would also like to get a copy of George Madis' old classic book on Winchester, which is considered the Winchester "bible."

It is curious to me that Winchester used bronze ("red brass") receivers and nobody else who was making guns at the time did. Why? It was not just an experiment because he made the 1866 all the way up to 1898 -- 32 years, not counting the 1860, which added six more years.

 

[goon]

IIRC, bronze was also used in some small howitzers. I think it was lighter than steel but had about the same strength.
But that doesn't explain why it would continue to be used even after the 1873 came out.

 

[Jim Watson]

Bronze was known as gun metal - as in artillery - because it could be cast more uniformly than iron. Cast iron guns were brittle, irregular, and prone to bursting. Naturally in a war you use what you have. And technology marches on.

Winchester seemed not to discontinue anything as long as it was selling. The 66 stayed on til 1898, the 73 until 1919 with parts cleanup continuing after that. Hard to write in a deep dark mystery about that. Bronze was a good material when they started production, they stayed with it as long as it paid off.

 

[wobble]

Winchester seemed not to discontinue anything as long as it was selling.

That's probably the real answer. It's amzing that they continued to sell the '66 and '73 even while more advanced models such as the '76, '86 and '92 were being sold.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The '66 and '73 had a very controlled feed system; Cowboy Action Shooters today swear a .44-40 '73 feeds smoother than a .44-40 '92. They were sold as long as people demanded them, and apparently there's been enough demend to bring them back off and on over the years.

Just don't get a .44-40 cartridge in a .38-40 Winchester '73 rifle: that enclosed cartridge carrier will make you wish you had a '92 Winchester or a '94 Marlin with an open carrier that makes ejection of a wrong size cartridge easy.

 

[Speedo66]

The 1873 still had a nice chunk of brass, the carrier.

 

[Jim Watson]

Just don't get a .44-40 cartridge in a .38-40 Winchester '73 rifle:

And especially don't get a .45 Colt sixgun cattige in a .44-40 carbine.

There was one Texas Ranger who did so and had the fun of unscrewing the sideplates with the point of his Bowie knife whilst under attack by Hostiles. He got out in one piece and bought a .44-40 revolver as soon as he got back to town.
Friend of mine did it in the less dangerous surroundings of a CAS match.
Got a .44-40 in his .45 SAA, oncet, too. Ptooey.

But there was another 19th century lawman who had a revolver bind up on a split .44-40 case and swore off the combination caliber pistol-rifle set. Sometimes you just can't win.

 

[Jim K]

Numerous tests run in the pre-CW period with artillery showed that bronze was better than iron for guns. It was not only easier to work with, but it would "give" a bit under pressure rather than breaking up as the early iron guns did with some regularity.

And not just small guns, either. The 12-pounder field howitzer ("Napoleon"), the most common field gun of the CW, was bronze. And when they went to iron with the ordnance rifles, the breech was thicker; other were re-inforced, like the Parrotts.

Bronze was a perfectly good material for small arms as well. Iron was not necessarily better, and steel was still in the future for most gun makers. Some folks admire the case hardening of Winchester and Colt receivers, believing that it was used solely for decoration. But in fact it was needed to reduce wear in iron frames, since iron, unlike steel, can't be hardened by heat treatment.

Jim