Winchester Black Talons

[Slaytera666]

I just bought a few boxes from a buddy and wanted to know why they aren't sold any more. I got them for about the cost of some good JHPs but he said they were pretty expensive to try and buy them anymore. Anybody have insight on this?

 

[mattjoe]

yeah, it was the evil name and menacing claw on the packaging.
and the whiny anti-gun crowd cries of, they'll penetrate bullet proof vests! we must stop the sale of these cop killer bullets!
I think the black talon was the original bullet labeled "cop killer ammo".
Made for bad publicity for Winchester.

Winchester stopped packaging them as such, and killed the name.
I think the same round is still around as the sxt or something. Dont really know as it's been so long since i've bought factory ammo.

 

[WEPS]

correct me if im wrong but arn't those just regular jhp's painted black as a marketing ploy?

 

[Jim K]

The original Teflon-coated bullets were rifle bullets, originally designed for rifles used in hunting large game with thick hides. Someone then put out some in pistol calibers, the anti-gun gangsters claimed that they would penetrate low level "bullet proof" vests, and the media went ballistic. Federal law banned those bullets as "armor piercing", even though level 1 vests were not "proof" against much of anything except maybe a spitball.

Black Talon bullets were nothing more than expanding JHP bullets. The Winchester people who gave it the name really took stupid pills because the name immediately sent the wrong message and the antis charged that the bullets were sold for killing black people. That message no sooner got started than they charged that the expanded bullet ripped through flesh like a buzz saw, even though it would make only one turn in a human body. Then they claimed that the sharp edges would tear latex gloves and surgeons who operated on gunshot victims would all die from horrible diseases. So Winchester took Black Talon ammo off the market (no law was passed on the Federal level) except for LE sale, since presumably people shot by the police deserved to be ripped up and did not have horrible diseases.

All the time, of course, Remington Golden Sabre, almost exactly the same thing without the "racist" name, continued to be sold with no problems.

Jim

 

[alamo]

I wouldn't use them for defense personally. There is ammo just as good or better out there. You would just give a good defense lawyer (or prosecutor) a reason to make your life miserable. "Regular bullets weren't good enough for the defendant, he used cop-killer ammo that is so lethal it was banned." Use it for practice.

 

[DigMe]

The modern version of the Black Talons are the Winchester Ranger T cartridges and they are different than the Black Talons but offer exceptional performance.

brad cook

 

[Flashpoint]

The modern version of the Black Talons are the Winchester Ranger T cartridges and they are different than the Black Talons but offer exceptional performance.

I just bought a box of those-50 for $20. They fed well and was as accurate as anything. The don't look like anything other than JHP to me. Hydroshocks look much more "evil".

 

[Ala Dan]

And Winchester's Silvertip JHP's are just as good; at least in my
way of thinking.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[MrMurphy]

Winchester's Ranger SXT round is the newer better version of the same round. They declawed it and changed the color. But SXT stands for "Supreme Expansion Talon".


It's all politics and marketing. There are far better rounds out there than the Black Talon now.

 

[1911Tuner]

Black Talon

The thing that really got the bad hype started with the Black Talons was that moron that shot up the Long Island subway with a 9mm loaded with 147-grain talons...That was the beginning of the "public" outcry, and Winchester decided to pull them off the civilian market shortly after.

Aside from that, I thought it was an excellent round. It fed in about anything that would feed ball...like the Golden Saber. It was accurate, and expanded reliably in the usual test mediums...and those wicked talons
really were sharp.

The Golden Saber produces exactly the same effect, but with a slightly different jacket mechanism. It's still there...probably because some moron with mommy and daddy issues hasn't used it in a crowded restaurant...yet.

 

[DigMe]

I just bought a box of those-50 for $20. They fed well and was as accurate as anything. The don't look like anything other than JHP to me. Hydroshocks look much more "evil".

The Winchester Ranger T has much better results in gelatin, which I realize is not the end-all be-all and that BGs are not made of gelatin but the Hydra-shocks have a rep for not expanding well through intermediate barriers.

Winchester's Ranger SXT round is the newer better version of the same round. They declawed it and changed the color. But SXT stands for "Supreme Expansion Talon"

I don't believe Winchester makes a Ranger SXT anymore. They make a Ranger T, which is their latest LE/Talon ammo and they make Winchester Supreme SXT which is an inferior defensive ammo that they sell in retail stores.

The Winchester Ranger T ammo is not declawed. The talons just open slightly smaller than they used to and sometimes they get folded all the way back before they opened. The Black Talons tended to stick out a bit more.

Here's a picture of some old bullets I shot out of my .40 S&W into water jugs. Left is a 180gr Hydra Shock, right is a 180gr Ranger T:

Now here's a picture that Snowdog took a while back. Left is Gold Dot (can't remember weight) and both of the other two are 147gr Ranger T 9mm rounds shot through two different barrel lengths:

Now finally (Hope I'm not pissing off you 56k guys!!) another picture that snowdog took of some .45 rounds. Two on the left are modern Ranger T ammo and the one on the right is an old Black Talon round. All were shot through 2 layers of denim. See how the black talon opens a bit more?

Hope snowdog doesn't mind me borrowing his images!

Basically the newer T rounds don't expand the talons quite as much. I believe they are less likely to cause further damage with the talons unless they tumble while passing through the body. However, in my mind they still remain the top performing ammo pretty much across the board as far as expansion and penetration goes.

brad cook

 

[Serpico]

Maybe it is folklore, but I read somewhere that the black talons were a problem for surgeons who were cutting their fingers on the sharp "talons" when they tried to remove them...looking at the above pic, is does look like the round is sharper on the edges....

 

[DigMe]

Serpico,

I think that is indeed folklore. Most surgeons are not going to be jaming their fingers down into an open wound. They use tools for that. Besides there are other bullets that would have the ability to cut fingers as well, even ones that don't have "talons".

brad cook

 

[C. H. Luke]

"Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated."

These lacerations contribute little to overall wound severity.

However, if Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding."





Good info here:


"As we promised you in our last update, we describe in detail the wound ballistics of the unique Winchester Ranger Talon (formerly Black Talon/Ranger SXT) cartridge. We answer the question: "How does this bullet really work?""

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon

And

Scroll down to "Winchester Black Talon Revisited":

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm



http://www.yarchive.net/gun/ammo/black_talon.html

 

[hksw]

Maybe it is folklore, but I read somewhere that the black talons were a problem for surgeons who were cutting their fingers on the sharp "talons" when they tried to remove them...looking at the above pic, is does look like the round is sharper on the edges....

Although I've never seen or read about this actually happening, I do remember one medical professional going on camera on (IIRC) CBS news forwarding the concern. He never said an incident like this ever occurred but he presented the risk for the audience.

 

[Archie]

Dredged from the memory....

The original 'cop-killer' bullets were invented by CBS news. Now that's a shocker, ain't it?

One of [See? B. S.!]'s earlier 'investigative' reports focused on KTW ammo company's armor-piercing handgun ammo.

It was, in fact, armor-piercing; it had a bronze, spire point bullet. The bullet was teflon coated to keep the bullet from damaging the rifling in handguns. KTW sold the ammo only to law-enforcement agencies and to individual officers through police equipment distributors. The purpose of the ammo was to give officers a 'shot' (pun intended) at vehicles or barricaded suspects with their normal duty sidearm. They were available in common 'police' calibers and worked fairly well. I think they were loaded in the "+p" range.

See? B.S.! portrayed them to the public as designed to penetrate police officer's 'bullet proof' vests. Despite the fact that the rounds were not offered to the public, and the fact that no police officer had ever been assaulted with such ammo, CBS smeared the company and the ammunition. They may have even had some 'documents', I don't remember.

From this came the belief that any bullet, when coated with teflon, will penetrate a vest. Bunk. Federal's 'Nyclad' line was a swedged lead bullet with teflon coating. The coating in this case was to suppress lead particles on indoor ranges. But CBS and the ignorati could not be swayed.

In the early '80s, the Federal Government passed an 'anti-armor-piercing handgun ammo' law. The law was based on bullet contruction.

Lately, the hissy-fit-moronic-anti-gun crowd has changed the meaning of 'cop-killer' bullet from armor-piercing to hollowpoints. The argument is the only reason to use hollowpoint handgun ammo is to shoot cops. Obviously, no one would use such ammo to defend one's home or family.

This does explain the histronic use of the ficticious term: 'armor-piercing, hollowpoint cop-killer' bullet. Yes, I've talked to people who think such a thing exists.

When the "Black Talon" controvery started, I had a thought, but no one would listen. The BT has a black colored jacket. I suggested Winchester change the color of the coating to pink or bright yellow and call the ammo line 'Daisy Petal'. Who could complain about that?

Excellent article at
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200403010926.asp

 

[unspellable]

Black Talon

I recall some tests from about that time that showed the Black Talon, at least in 357 and 44 mag, to be better as a deer load than as a self defense load. Even in its day there were other loads that peformed better as manstoppers.

Generally, what makes the best deer bullet does not make the best man stopper and vice versa. The reason the 357 outdoes the 44 as a manstopper, bullets designed for the purpose where as most 44 bullets are designed for hunting, will go clean through a man and expend energy in the back ground.

 

[SADshooter]

I never watched the show regularly, but I think the "danger to surgeons" myth was exacerbated by an episode of "E.R." in which a surgeon operated on a gunshot wound inflicted by a Black Talon.

 

[Jim K]

Just in case it has escaped notice by the naive, The Brady Campaign and other anti groups routinely pay TV writers to create story lines showing the dangers of firearms ownership and promoting gun bans and gun control laws.

They also have a stable of "experts" in various fields who regularly show up on TV to tell the audience that Florida hurricanes are the direct result of that state's lax gun laws, or some such nonsense. These are the guys firing machineguns they call "assault rifles" and learnedly pushing the idea that Iraqi terrorists are buying their AK-47's at American gun shows.

Jim

 

[wintermute76]

I've heard also that SXT stands for Same eXact Thing.

As far as performance, the new Federal HST seems like a good bullet from what I"ve seen.

 

[Jim March]

None of the rounds DigMe has pictures of are Gold Dots.

Sorry, but Gold Dots are dead obvious when expanded - there's always lead stuck to the inside of the expansion petals. The jacket is an electrochemical plate job on the lead so there's no clear "boundry" between lead and copper to "peel".

 

[DigMe]

None of the rounds DigMe has pictures of are Gold Dots.

Oh you're right, Jim! I was thinking I had pasted a different picture there. I believe all three rounds in that pic are Ranger bullets. I didn't even look at it after I posted.

brad cook

 

[Archer]

Just in case it has escaped notice by the naive, The Brady Campaign and other anti groups routinely pay TV writers to create story lines showing the dangers of firearms ownership and promoting gun bans and gun control laws.

Please cite one specific example. Just one will do.

Look, I loath the Brady Campaign and others of their ilk as much as anyone here, but I have been involved in the business about you which you speak and I don't know of anything remotely representing your claim.

So name one, if you can. Even though you speak about multiple instances, I will accept one single example.

 

[Coronach]

Well, I dunno about pay, but one of the anti-gun groups had a fairly well publicised 'storyline workshop' (or something like that) where it printed up nifty little plot ideas for scriptwriters- things like Timmy Finds a Gun and Bad Things Happen (how original). It elevates 'getting your message out' to a whole new level of propaganda-through-art.

But, again, I agree that pay is probably incorrect. But, I'd like to see cites, for certain.

Mike

 

[Todesengel]

Those Bullets were fired in the mud, not the perfect medium but you see the expansion.