natedog
Member
Why doesn't Winchester sell Rangers to non-LEOs? Does Winchester have any premium JHP that they will sell to civilians?
Why aren't Black Talon's being produced anymore?
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I remember a meet-and-greet a local law enforcement agency had, that I attended, several years ago. I believe it was about the time that Winchester had introduced the Black Talon and this agency had recently began issuing them to their officers. Anyway, a few of the S.W.A.T./S.R.T. officers were there showing off their goodies. They were quite excited about their new ammunition and began extolling the virtues of it to our group. As I recall, one of the officers stated that if you were shot anywhere in the torso, your were sure to die; if you were shot in an arm or leg, you were guaranteed to loose that limb. 
As my knowledge of firearms and ballistics back then wasn't quite what it is today, I sure was impressed.
Though the Black Talon may not live up to its' reputation, I've got two 50 round boxes of them that work as the best damn doorstop I've ever seen.
As my knowledge of firearms and ballistics back then wasn't quite what it is today, I sure was impressed.
Though the Black Talon may not live up to its' reputation, I've got two 50 round boxes of them that work as the best damn doorstop I've ever seen.
cratz2
Member
I believe the CA law office shooting was what prompted the heat to come down on Winchester. Schumer helped out but Winchester pulled the name. There was also some talk of the 'teflon coating' being able to easily defeat light armor that many police wear.
As to the difference between the Ranger Ts and the Black Talons, other than the color, I think there is relatively little difference. Some folks that dedicate a lot of time to research and data compiling of ballistics have said that the current Rangers are a slight improvement over the Black Talons, esp the 147 Gr 9mm load.
The Ranger Ts are readily available. There is nothing stopping anyone from owning, selling or buying the ammo, but the box says "Law Enforcement Only"... It's not illegal to own something unless there is a law against it. If you search for 'Ranger' in the Accessories forum, you'll find a gentleman that sells them for approx $17 to $20 per box of 50... That's not much more expensive than Speer Gold Dots bought in boxes of 20. I consider them about equal to hotter Gold Dot loads. In 40S&W and 45ACP, I'd put the Golden Sabers right in there as well though I'm not so much of a fan of the Golden Sabers in 9mm.
As to the difference between the Ranger Ts and the Black Talons, other than the color, I think there is relatively little difference. Some folks that dedicate a lot of time to research and data compiling of ballistics have said that the current Rangers are a slight improvement over the Black Talons, esp the 147 Gr 9mm load.
The Ranger Ts are readily available. There is nothing stopping anyone from owning, selling or buying the ammo, but the box says "Law Enforcement Only"... It's not illegal to own something unless there is a law against it. If you search for 'Ranger' in the Accessories forum, you'll find a gentleman that sells them for approx $17 to $20 per box of 50... That's not much more expensive than Speer Gold Dots bought in boxes of 20. I consider them about equal to hotter Gold Dot loads. In 40S&W and 45ACP, I'd put the Golden Sabers right in there as well though I'm not so much of a fan of the Golden Sabers in 9mm.
djsjd
Member
Why no more Black Talons??? Well, from the perspective of the medical community that I hang out with once in a while, the feedback coming from them was that the fragments from the shell / casing / jacket were a hazard to the medical folks. From what I was told, some stink was made of this issue, which only fueled the fire.
natedog
Member
Will Winchester sell them to commercial distributors?
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
(Laughing Loudly)
Cuz Burr' Clinton was scared of them!
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Cuz Burr' Clinton was scared of them!
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
snubby
Member
The boxes of Ranger T I have say "Law Enforcement Ammunition," with no mention of the word "only." I point this out not to quibble but to emphasize that this ammo can be bought/used by any law-abiding civilian without worry over legality. I think that if the word "only" were attached to the ammunition things could get a little more dicey in the courtroom aftermath following a SD shoot by a CCW holder.
cratz2
Member
You're right... my point was in the right place, but I added the word 'only'.
I just think it's funny that some folks think it's illegal for civilians to sell or own the Ranger ammo... As if I could make a pair of 1911 grips and put them in a box that says 'Law Enforcement' and that somehow makes it illegal for a non-LEO to own it. One guy I talked to actually though that the only reason LEO mags were illegal to be owned by non-LEOs was because they were stamped LEO...
What makes things illegal is the fact that there are laws saying things are illegal. Not that hard to grasp.
Archie
Member
Ranger SXT ammo....
is usually interpreted as meaning "Same Xact Thing".
My suggestion to Winchester was to change the black coating to pink and call them "Daisy Petals". I figured that would keep lil Chucky Schumer from wetting his pants. It's all marketing and, on the part of the liberals, anti-marketing. Pun not intended, but it fits.
Winchester still markets their "Silvertip" premium self-defense ammo as well as Ranger SXT. It always shot well for me, but tended to be a little lighter bullet weight than what I like best.
is usually interpreted as meaning "Same Xact Thing".
My suggestion to Winchester was to change the black coating to pink and call them "Daisy Petals". I figured that would keep lil Chucky Schumer from wetting his pants. It's all marketing and, on the part of the liberals, anti-marketing. Pun not intended, but it fits.
Winchester still markets their "Silvertip" premium self-defense ammo as well as Ranger SXT. It always shot well for me, but tended to be a little lighter bullet weight than what I like best.
45crittergitter
Member
Check out the Platinum Tip handgun ammo. Looks just like a silver talon to me.
Mute
Member
They're still making them. They just don't call them Black Talon anymore because:
1. It scares children and blissninny liberals
2. They've evolved and have been improved upon by Winchester
You can find them in the following guises:
- Black Talon
- Ranger
- Ranger T
- Ranger SXT
SXT more or less means Same eXact Thing unless it's the lame-$$$ Supreme SXT. These are mediocre rounds and are nothing like the BT designed rounds named above.
1. It scares children and blissninny liberals
2. They've evolved and have been improved upon by Winchester
You can find them in the following guises:
- Black Talon
- Ranger
- Ranger T
- Ranger SXT
SXT more or less means Same eXact Thing unless it's the lame-$$$ Supreme SXT. These are mediocre rounds and are nothing like the BT designed rounds named above.
Sean Smith
Member
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They aren't produced anymore because Winchester has developed a better cartridge, the Ranger-T, T for Talon of course.
The SXT bullets are not the same as the Ranger-T bullets. The Supreme SXT bullets sold to "civilians" are not the same as either one, either, and don't undergo the same performance testing as the Ranger line.
The SXT bullets are not the same as the Ranger-T bullets. The Supreme SXT bullets sold to "civilians" are not the same as either one, either, and don't undergo the same performance testing as the Ranger line.
voilsb
Member
Diggler
Member
Oleg,
How come those bullets in your pic are black? My Ranger SXT's are copper just like regular bullets. Is that one of the first runs of the ammo?
How come those bullets in your pic are black? My Ranger SXT's are copper just like regular bullets. Is that one of the first runs of the ammo?
Zach S
Member
I was wondering the same thing as diggler...
Of course the SXTs I saw at the range didnt have the teflon coating, since teflon coated bullets are illegal in NC:banghead:
Of course the SXTs I saw at the range didnt have the teflon coating, since teflon coated bullets are illegal in NC:banghead:
Sean Smith
Member
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The black talons weren't teflon coated. They were coated with something else called "lubalox." Sounds like something you would put on a bagel with some cream cheese.
Edited to add: the lox part of lubalox. Dang, you people are sick.
Edited to add: the lox part of lubalox. Dang, you people are sick.
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Diggler
Member
Sounds like something you'd find in an adult bookstore.
gggman
Member
I've got three 20 rd.boxes of 230 gr. 45acp Black Talon ammo. How much can I get for it?
gggman
Member
Back at you, Gewehr98.
Black_Talon
Member
These are the first "post Black Talon" loads. They're called "RA45SXT" and come with the same black Lubalox bullet as the original, but in a brass case.
The were followed by the redesigned (and current) "RA45T" which has copper bullets and nickeled brass.
Here's a pic of both:
Hemicuda
member
I was once told (by a reputable Winchester rep) that the SXT in "Ranger SXT" was a play on words from the guys at Winchester, and the "SXT" stood for
"Same eXact Thing" (as in Same eXact Thing as a Black Talon)
"Same eXact Thing" (as in Same eXact Thing as a Black Talon)
gggman
Member
My boxes of Black Talon say "Black Talon SXT" on the box. So what are the Black Talon the same exact thing as?
BluesBear
member
SXT stands for Supreme eXpansion Technology. It was called this by Winchester in all of their early ads for this ammo. I believe it's even printed on the back of the box.
The "Same Xact Thing" MYTH came along later.
The original Black Talon in the 20 round boxes was loaded into nickle plated cases. The Ranger ammo, with the original black coated bullets, in the 50 round boxes was loaded into brass cases.
There was also a killing of a police officer in Jeffersontown Kentucky (a suburb of Louisville) in the middle 1990s that recieved a lot of attention. It seems a high risk wanted felon shot the office and the round entered in the neck/shoulder area and coursed downward and was fatal. The fact that the officer was killed while wearing a ballistic vest drove yet another nail in the coffin of Black Talon ammo.
The prices today I see for original Black Talon ammo are not only ridiculous, they are obscene.
The "Same Xact Thing" MYTH came along later.
The original Black Talon in the 20 round boxes was loaded into nickle plated cases. The Ranger ammo, with the original black coated bullets, in the 50 round boxes was loaded into brass cases.
There was also a killing of a police officer in Jeffersontown Kentucky (a suburb of Louisville) in the middle 1990s that recieved a lot of attention. It seems a high risk wanted felon shot the office and the round entered in the neck/shoulder area and coursed downward and was fatal. The fact that the officer was killed while wearing a ballistic vest drove yet another nail in the coffin of Black Talon ammo.
The prices today I see for original Black Talon ammo are not only ridiculous, they are obscene.
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