Winchester 'Green Tip' to be "Banned"

[hso]

He can want, but he can't just change GOCO contract terms without equivalent compensation to the Operating Contractor. It is possible if he wants to pay for every out of spec or overrun round the Operating Contractor can't sell. THAT isn't easy since the budgets have already been passed and signed.

Of course it is meaningless if that's "green tip" since it is being replaced in production and won't be available as overrun or out of spec.

 

[arsterling180]

I guess to get everything cleaned up is what are we hearing? The Illuminati cyphers are claiming it’s m855, but now people are claiming all .223. Where are we hearing this? Who is saying this? How did it go from m855 to all .224 caliber.

 

[CapnMac]

The Illuminati cyphers are claiming it’s m855, but now people are claiming all .223. Where are we hearing this? Who is saying this? How did it go from m855 to all .224 caliber.

Arfcom, word-of-mouth, "the telephone game"--"our" own paranoia blows all of this all out of proportion.

The original notion was that Win-Olin could be told to stop selling over-run M855 from military contracts on the civilian market.

That notion was a patent contract infringement, and a violation of budgetary legislation, so it was moot from the get go.

It was a specious notion at best, as Olin makes "M855" labeled ammo in more factories than just the joint Lake City plant. And, it's not like Olin is the only manufacturer, either.

But, why let that get in the way of a juicy rumor about them carn-sarned [insert slur for selected political opponent]?

Which, sadly is what the histrionic "rhetoric" of the anti crowd has reduced "our" side to--being just as reactive, reflexive, and unthinking as their side is. Not at all helped by a slavering Fourth Estate all too willing to shout "Fight! Fight!" so as to have salacious content to sell as "news."

 

[hso]

CapnMac is right, but I'll add that our own 2A organizations that are supposed to protecting our rights used it as propaganda to spin us up as a fund raiser.

 

[trackskippy]

CapnMac is right, but I'll add that our own 2A organizations that are supposed to protecting our rights used it as propaganda to spin us up as a fund raiser.

They need the drama just as much as those who want to take things away. One reason you never see anything get anywhere from this side.

 

[hso]

They need the drama just as much as those who want to take things away.

It has become an industry with people making livings off of both sides.

 

[hso]

Now a YouTuber says US DOD is running out of ammo due to shortage of antimony (China and Russia supplies), so Lake City is being told to no longer commit any production to civilian market. Said to impact 30% pct of US civilian supply of 5.56.


GOCOs don't impact civilian supply unless the .gov is making supplemental orders from civilian manufacturers depleting their production.

Where do they get these people?

 

[trackskippy]

I think everyone should send the NRA $100. Wayne needs a new suit.

 

[epags]

I may be misremembering here, but back when the "cop killer" bullets were penetrating pistol caliber vests, they started banning anything that, when fired from a "handgun", and would penetrate a cops soft vest, was considered to be AP in that respect.......

Black Talon was one of the 'cop killer' ammunition often said to be banned, however:
Black Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use. Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media.[1] Black Talon ammunition was produced in the following calibers: 9mm Luger, 10mm Auto, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, .308 Winchester, .338 Winchester Magnum, and .30-06 Springfield.

Black Talon was controversial, and Winchester discontinued sales to the general public in 1993 and ceased manufacture in 2000.
Black Talon bullets were never banned, or in any way made illegal. Following the Long Island Railroad Mass Murder in 1993, Black Talon ammunition attained notoriety in the media and with the anti-gun lobby.

 

[DustyGmt]

I initially took a bunch of PPU M855 in trade during BHO admin because I got it very cheap relative to what I traded and at that point it was right after sandy hook or some other massive incident and it was going for $1.50/rd at gun shows and I thought $0.20/rd was a good deal.

But I hated it, shot like hell in my DPMS I had at the time, then years later every other AR I owned. Buckshot patterns @ 100 but I plinked a bit of it off and I keep a brick and a couple dozen mags loaded with it because even though it's not very accurate, it is reliable and has what seems like very robustly sealed primers and projectiles. Like a perfect lil red circle around the primer. I imagine it will last a century or more.

I think alot of people just bought it because they feel that 62gr is better than 55gr and many because they "feel" like they have some kind of jacked up "armor piercing" 5.56 or something, I would take 750rds of M193 over 1000rds of M855 any day of the week, but I guess it's not a bad thing to hang onto a bit, some dummy might want to go back to paying $1+ /rd for it

 

[DustyGmt]

Black Talon was one of the 'cop killer' ammunition often said to be banned, however:
Black Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use. Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media.[1] Black Talon ammunition was produced in the following calibers: 9mm Luger, 10mm Auto, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, .308 Winchester, .338 Winchester Magnum, and .30-06 Springfield.

Black Talon was controversial, and Winchester discontinued sales to the general public in 1993 and ceased manufacture in 2000.
Black Talon bullets were never banned, or in any way made illegal. Following the Long Island Railroad Mass Murder in 1993, Black Talon ammunition attained notoriety in the media and with the anti-gun lobby.

And ditched the "black" cartridge coating reintroduced it as PDX1 or Ranger or something. Same projectile I'm pretty sure, they just had to shake off the bad smell of the "black Talon" moniker. Imagine, something being stigmatized because of the way it looks......

 

[hso]

reintroduced it as PDX1 or Ranger or something

Ranger

 

[DustyGmt]

Ranger

I knew it was one of those two. My uncle has some .45acp Black Talons from the 90's and compared them to some PDX1's I bought in the late 2000's and they looked identical to me. Then I got some Rangers and compared them to my PDX1's and to my eye they also looked pretty much identical IIRC. Are they all thr same projectile or?

 

[kwguy]

Sooo, does all this mean that we’ll start to se 855A1 for sale? ;-)

 

[GooseGestapo]

Removed by poster...

 

[CherokeeGunslinger]

M855 sucks anyway, M193 is the superior round.
/thread

 

[DoubleMag]

62gr is also made in traditional FMJ, no steel insert.

 

[Hartkopf]

From Sam at SGammo.
Looks like sales are up due to the scary hype. (not saying there’s hype on THR). There has been LOTS of green tips for sale for months but they’re pretty much sold out now.

ETA: Midway and TargetSports look to have a decent amount but prices are high.

 

[kwguy]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the green tip isn’t being “banned” per se, but the excess that is (was) produced by our US .mil plants are stopping the sale of THEIR excess. Is that about right?

 

[CapnMac]

Is that about right?

It may be, but that could be restraint of trade. Olin makes ammo at the government owned Lake City plant, for use by dot gov. But, as any sensible outfit making product subject to external review for suitability, they make more than the contract amount (and some of that is related to running the machines efficiently--why make 880 of something if 1000 is an "even number of machine runs).

The contracts were let via Congressional Legislation, too, and understanding that Olin would produce product to generate profit for them selves as well as meeting the needs of the dot gov contract.

As a guess the written contract specifies what the contractor can do with product "over runs" and that contract cannot be changed by whim or fancy.

 

[Reloadron]

Shows up again in current news. The problem with stories like this is a little like separating the wheat from the chaff or better put the truth from rumors.

Personally I never cared for M855 and SS109 ammunition as it never delivered good accuracy for me. I have a few cans of the stuff I figured would give me brass and bought it cheap. If I wanted ammunition for all the wrong reasons I would not choose M855 or SS109 as there are much better bullet choices out there.

Just My Take....
Ron

 

[Neo-Luddite]

I never understood how that got by the armor piercing ammo bans. Everything else supposedly armor piercing, that was chambered in any kind of "pistol" at some point, was banned, yet the 5.56 "Green Tip" gets a wave? Hows that work?

It's not AP. The steel core allows moderately better penetration at longer ranges. Under 100 yrds regular 55 grain will out perform it through almost anything (higher velocity, more energy). Now, the new 855a1 is a very different matter and never has been sold (new at least) on the commercial market. Also, kind of like m2AP in .30/06..the ATF ruled that ss0109/855 was sporting ammo; these 2 rounds/loads have a category just for them as such.

 

[Ignition Override]

Prices for the lowest-priced .223 still appears to be stable compared with the last few months.

Even steel-cased .223 would probably be a good bit higher if brass-cased .223 had already gone up.

Combining A) the political exploitation of the Texas tragedy with this B) "tentative" action regarding Lake City, seeing steady prices seems rather odd?

"Ammoseek."

 

[plainsdrifter]

I'd like to know how many rounds total they just dumped on the market. Must be millions.
Gotta make room for the new stuff!

 

[plainsdrifter]