Richard.Howe
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I imagine it might affect Winchester the same way it did Toyota: lower price and better quality.
Winchester Model 70 vs. Remington 700
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I imagine it might affect Winchester the same way it did Toyota: lower price and better quality.
JNewell
Member
I have owned and/or currently own Win 70s (both push feed and pre-64), Rem 700s and a first year Ruger 77. They're all fine. Two things I'd point out between the Rem and the Win. First, I like the safety on the Win better - it's better ergonomically and it's got a better record for working as intended. Second, I somewhat dislike the two-piece/three screw bottom metal on almost all Win 70s - they changed it a year or so before they shut the New Haven plant, if I recall correctly. I have had a couple of Model 70s that really didn't want to shoot up to their potential because of stock/bedding/screw issues, even after much attention.
These are minor points in the greater scheme of things. Both have probably sold millions of copies, and there's a good reason for that. They're excellent rifles - buy the one that pleases you to use.
These are minor points in the greater scheme of things. Both have probably sold millions of copies, and there's a good reason for that. They're excellent rifles - buy the one that pleases you to use.
[QUOTE Gewehr98: when I want to empty the mag, I drop the floorplate vs. cycling the rounds through the chamber.
][/QUOTE]
But what about that round that is already in the chamber? No way to get it out of chamber (on early models which have not been converted either by Remington recall or by individual owners) without "going hot" as Vern pointed out.
IMHO that is the major advantage of the Mod. 70. Remington makes a fine shooting rifle, but could take lessons from Winchester regarding their safeties on the 700 series rifles.
Regards,
hps
][/QUOTE]
But what about that round that is already in the chamber? No way to get it out of chamber (on early models which have not been converted either by Remington recall or by individual owners) without "going hot" as Vern pointed out.
IMHO that is the major advantage of the Mod. 70. Remington makes a fine shooting rifle, but could take lessons from Winchester regarding their safeties on the 700 series rifles.
Regards,
hps
Smitty in CT
Member
cracked butt said:
It's not going to happen, at least not in the New Haven Factory and definitely not being built by USRAC.
I have heard from fairly reliable sources that the Model 70 will be back, just not as a US made gun, it will be just like all of the current Winchester shotguns....an import with the Winchester name thrown on so they can get some sales.
The new Mossberg "4x4" in walnut looks interesting, I have yet to see one in a store though, only at the shows....
Never bothered me, really.
I just unload the chambered round like every other Remington owner has over umpteen years - with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and finger off the trigger. I do the same for my Remington 40-X and MAS-36 rifles, and neither of them even have safeties. I guess I should be surprised that I've never had an AD with either the Remingtons or MAS-36 rifles. Of course, the best safety's between your ears, and you should never rely on a mechanical safety to substitute for that one. If you do, then the chain of events are probably already in motion for something bad to happen.
Yes, I know some Remingtons have discharged when the safety has disengaged, including the example where the mom shot her son. I have issues with her situational awareness sans the safety malfunction (the last link in that chain), and I'm not too keen on Remington's 'non-recall", but what percentage of all the Remington rifles using that trigger/safety/bolt configuration have produced ADs? (Kitchen table gunsmith trigger jobs notwithstanding) I'll wager it's not enough to cause Remington to initiate a full-blown recall, nor stop production due to safety concerns. It's also not enough to keep me from buying another new Remington 700 variant - something you won't be able to do when looking for a brand-new Winchester Model 70.
I just unload the chambered round like every other Remington owner has over umpteen years - with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and finger off the trigger. I do the same for my Remington 40-X and MAS-36 rifles, and neither of them even have safeties. I guess I should be surprised that I've never had an AD with either the Remingtons or MAS-36 rifles. Of course, the best safety's between your ears, and you should never rely on a mechanical safety to substitute for that one. If you do, then the chain of events are probably already in motion for something bad to happen.
Yes, I know some Remingtons have discharged when the safety has disengaged, including the example where the mom shot her son. I have issues with her situational awareness sans the safety malfunction (the last link in that chain), and I'm not too keen on Remington's 'non-recall", but what percentage of all the Remington rifles using that trigger/safety/bolt configuration have produced ADs? (Kitchen table gunsmith trigger jobs notwithstanding) I'll wager it's not enough to cause Remington to initiate a full-blown recall, nor stop production due to safety concerns. It's also not enough to keep me from buying another new Remington 700 variant - something you won't be able to do when looking for a brand-new Winchester Model 70.
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I appreciate everyone's opinion and at this point I think I have it narrowed down to either the Remington 700 CDL or Mountain model. The detachable mag means nothing to me aside from the obvious quicker reload and if I'm shooting that badly I'd better pack it in for the day.
What is the velocity difference between the 24 and 22" barrels? The CDL seems to me that it would offer a greater potential for accuracy with the longer, heavier barrel though the 1lb weight difference is appealing to me. Any additional opinions would be helpful.
What is the velocity difference between the 24 and 22" barrels? The CDL seems to me that it would offer a greater potential for accuracy with the longer, heavier barrel though the 1lb weight difference is appealing to me. Any additional opinions would be helpful.
JNewell
Member
All other things being equal, for me, stiffer barrels shoot better. My 700LTR, which has a 20" barrel, weighs about the same as a BDL 700 sporter I had with a 24" barrel (IIRC) but out-shoots it.
smokemaker
Member
Were we due another 700 vs 70 thread? Seems like there's a mandatory one every 3 months or so... must be due. yuck.
SwampWolf
Member
"Yuck"? But then, here you are, involved in a thread that apparently disgusts you. I've never understood why folks who voice their disdain for the validity of a topic or take exception to even the redundancy of a subject find it so necessary to wade in with disparaging remarks. No one is forced to enter a thread they're not interested in or are bored with the retelling of the tale.
Essex County
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Years ago I developed My prefrences. Hunting Rifle...Model 70 Sporter. Varmint rig HB 700... I wouldn't purchase a new 700 on a bet. The early ones we're great. My two cents. Essex
The Annoyed Man
Member
I have no experience with the Model 70, but I do own an older controlled feed M77 MkII Ruger and a new Remington 700 VSF. I have not developed a preference for bolt design, although I understand the inherent advantages to a claw extractor and controlled feeding. Either bolt works fine for me; both rifles shoot as well as their design limitations permit (the Ruger is a light sporter, and the Remington is a heavy barreled varminter); but the fit and finish are better on the Remington.
None of that matters that much to me though. I enjoy both rifles for what they are.
None of that matters that much to me though. I enjoy both rifles for what they are.
The Winchester 70 is far from dead. FN owns the rights to the design, and is still making the action for their SPR and PBR tactical rifles. Due to an agreement with the unions, the Mod 70 can't be made anywhere else but the old plant, and until that contract expires, we won't be seeing any Winchesters. However, said contract is due to expire soon, so look for more model 70s, possibly made in SC at the FN plant, or possibly overseas.
Richard.Howe
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Agreed. If a three-position safety, controlled-round feed, and j-locks are neutral issues for you, then it's really a toss-up. The Remmy is a fine gun, it just never addressed some significant preferences of mine.
It's pretty trivial to add a Winchester safety to a Model 700, that your only preference over the 700. Gentry and a few others make them and they are available from Brownells.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/st...le=REMINGTON+700+THREE-POSITION+SAFETY+SHROUD
I like the Model 70 CRF over the M700 except for the long lock time. For hunting dangerous game - two legged or four - CRF is a must have AFAIC.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/st...le=REMINGTON+700+THREE-POSITION+SAFETY+SHROUD
I like the Model 70 CRF over the M700 except for the long lock time. For hunting dangerous game - two legged or four - CRF is a must have AFAIC.
Vern Humphrey
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I do, however, object to having to spend extra money to buy an aftermarket feature that should have been on the rifle to begin with.
Richard.Howe
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And it's not cheap, either. If you have a very *nice* gunsmith, the labor and parts will set you back at least $200. Heck, the part alone is nearly $150.
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's why until Remingtons come with 3-position safeties, I'll buy other makes of rifle.
I have had numerous, and still do have, some Remington 700s. I had one in .270. 'Twas a great gun. ... a model 700 "Classic".
I have had a couple and still do have one Win mod. 70. My current Mod. 70 is a .270 WSM.
I like this Win mod. 70-"Coyote". It is a good shooter and looks kinda neat.
However, I liked all the Remington 700s I ever had.
I have had a couple and still do have one Win mod. 70. My current Mod. 70 is a .270 WSM.
I like this Win mod. 70-"Coyote". It is a good shooter and looks kinda neat.
However, I liked all the Remington 700s I ever had.
Kimber1911_06238
Member
ford vs. chevy debate. pick them up and if possible shoot them. Just a matter of personal preference.
I have personally owned .270 Winchesters in the following rifles, and they are arranged in best to "least" accuracy ability:
**Sako FinnBear
Weatherby Mark V (9-lug) USA-made
Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic
Weatherby Vanguard VGX (2 of them)
**Winchester M70 Feather Weight
Remington 700 BDL
Remington 700 ADL
Most notable, ALL were capable of MOA or better with handloads. There is something to be said about the feel of a **Mauser claw and controlled round feeding. These two rifles are not only accurate, they were smooth and fully reliable. The Remingtons have a tendency (if the bolt is not smooth) to build up brass shavings and disable the ejection plunger. That stated, I felt fully confident with any of the aforementioned rifles.
**Sako FinnBear
Weatherby Mark V (9-lug) USA-made
Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic
Weatherby Vanguard VGX (2 of them)
**Winchester M70 Feather Weight
Remington 700 BDL
Remington 700 ADL
Most notable, ALL were capable of MOA or better with handloads. There is something to be said about the feel of a **Mauser claw and controlled round feeding. These two rifles are not only accurate, they were smooth and fully reliable. The Remingtons have a tendency (if the bolt is not smooth) to build up brass shavings and disable the ejection plunger. That stated, I felt fully confident with any of the aforementioned rifles.
Charles S
Member
The model 70 and the 700 have their benifits and shortcomings.
For hunting dangerous game I would prefer the model 70, however the hunters of the most dangerous prey in the world (terrorist, snipers, and enemy combatants) are currently using the 700 action.
I believe that before the advent of the custom bench rest actions (e.g. Neska ect) the Remington 700 ruled benchrest. There is a reason.
I love my model 70s, but they are not as accurate (for me) as my 700s.
I personally don't need any mechanical help for safety...I just keep my booger picker off the bang switch when I don't want it to go bang.
For hunting dangerous game I would prefer the model 70, however the hunters of the most dangerous prey in the world (terrorist, snipers, and enemy combatants) are currently using the 700 action.
I believe that before the advent of the custom bench rest actions (e.g. Neska ect) the Remington 700 ruled benchrest. There is a reason.
I love my model 70s, but they are not as accurate (for me) as my 700s.
I personally don't need any mechanical help for safety...I just keep my booger picker off the bang switch when I don't want it to go bang.
Richard.Howe
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Me too -- but when I have a loaded chamber and the safety's on, I don't need an unlocked bolt. That's one of my issues with Rem safeties; there's no locked-bolt option without heading to the 'smith. Ever try to shoot a model 700 with a half-open bolt that was snagged by a branch...and all the while, the safety was on? I have, and that's why my closet is devoid of them.
Oh yeah, there is also that pesky design issue with the Rem safeties that has led to AD/ND's, with resultant lawsuits. Not so common with a firing pin block, ala M70.
If keeping my "booger hook off the bang button" was all there is to rifle safety, I imagine we'd see more Glock-esque no-external-safety-switch designs. We do not, because most of us hike through the woods with one in the chamber and the firing pin spring energized (i.e. "cocked").
A switch-type safety on a rifle helps those pesky twigs, errant clothing snags, etc. from catching on that trigger and ruining your day. That's why I demand absolute confidence in this component more than any other part of my long guns.
Rich
Vern Humphrey
Member
The Model 70 was their first choice, however.
The Marines wanted the Model 70 in Viet Nam, but not the post-64 action. Winchester wouldn't give them what they wanted, and they went with Remington. Since then Remington has busted a gut to meet sniper requirements -- and Winchester has ignored that market.
It isn't the rifle design, it's corporate policy than makes the 700 so ubiquitous with snipers.
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