Winchester Model 70 vs. Remington 700
- Thread starter Slater
- Start date
- Status
Only thing similar between them is they are bolt action rifles. Being as honest as I can I have been in love with both and they are the only bolt rifles I own. My first rifle was a 700 and second was a 70. I've owned several of both brands from 1970s to present, never had a bad one regardless of what others are going to say.
Over the years the quality of both has changed, sometimes for the better and sometimes worse. But I've stayed loyal to both Remington and Winchester.
Over the years the quality of both has changed, sometimes for the better and sometimes worse. But I've stayed loyal to both Remington and Winchester.
sage5907
Member
joed said it right, the "only thing similar between them is they are both bolt action rifles." From 1937 through 1963 the Winchester 70 was the quality rifle with many high quality features. At the same time Remington was manufacturing rifles that were lower priced with less features and cheaper manufacturing costs. When 1964 came around Winchester came out with a revised rifle that was intended to reduce manufacturing costs, but it retained some of the good features of the previous version. The big differences between the Winchester and Remington are the design of the receiver, the trigger and safety design, and the finishing process of the metal. The Winchester has a flat bottom receiver while the Remington has a round bottom receiver. Many for the Winchester's are controlled feed while all of the Remington's are push feed when loading cartridges. The Winchester has a 3 position bolt safety while the Remington has a trigger safety. The finishing process on the metal of the Winchester is much stronger and doesn't rust as quickly as the Remington. I am a Winchester 70 fan and select Winchester rifles more for their quality, while I see Remington rifles more as a tool. I hunt with Winchester rifles, but I hunt with Remington shotguns. Go figure!
Last edited:
Gordon
Member
The original Model 70 was a civilianized Mauser Mod 98 with a coned breech and excellent materials. The Model 700 ancestors : 721 and 722 which are all most identical turned out to be the prototype for most benchrest and superior accuracy weapons ever since. My wife is calling me to breakfast.
Last edited:
mcb
Member
The only modern center-fire bolt-gun I own is a 1956 Winchester Model 70 in 270 Winchester. I do own a few old military bot actions and a rimfire bolt action but only one modern bolt gun. The Win M70 was given to me by my father and is a very well used but very nice rifle. Not going to win any beauty contests but it is a very solid hunting rifle. The controlled feed Mauser style action, as much as I like that system, is not nearly as strong as a 700 actions. If I was buying a new bolt gun especially in a magnum cartridge it would more likely be a new Rem 700 than a new M70 for that reason (and despite Remington's present plight). That said I currently don't have much use or desire for center-fire bolt gun, but I would not turn down a Remington PSR though...
Offfhand
Member.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 2,442
Mr. Gordon hits the bullseye. Much of what we know-or think we know- about the elements of rifle accuracy are based on the evolutionary concepts of the Remington Models 721 and 722. For example, virtually all modern day accuracy specific bolt action rifle designs utilize the fire control (trigger) well dimensions and spacing of those models and in fact remain virtually interchangeable. Another example is the Kelbly Atlas action, shown in attached photo, which shares the same receiver diameter and hole spacings with the early Model 722 and later 700 Remington actions. Though I much prefer the Pre-64 M-70 action as a basis for custom rifles, they no way compare with the M-700 for accuracy.
SwampWolf
Member
The Mauser-style extractor on all Model 70s from 1964 and before and on some, if not most, since is a distinguishing feature (sometimes referred to as "controlled" vs "push" feed systems) between the two rifles. I have heard of the brazed-on bolt handle on the Model 700 coming off on rare occasions (something that almost can't happen on a Model 70) and there is the unfortunate defective trigger/safety issue claims against the Remington two-position safety that causes some people pause.
mcb
Member
But that trigger with the "unfortunate problems" is no longer in commercial use; that was the old Walker trigger. All 700 since 2007 have gotten the X Mark Pro triggers. Despite the supposed problems you can still get a Walker trigger on a true M24/-A2/-A3. The military still uses the Walker on most of their M24s. The news media has stirred that pot so savagely its nearly impossible to separate facts from fiction and spin.
SwampWolf
Member
Vern Humphrey
Member
The original Winchester trigger (not the current trigger) is one reason I prefer the Model 70. I have been hunting with a rifle with an enclosed trigger, similar to the Remington (and current Winchester) and had moisture freeze in the trigger housing. I'm not going to shell out a few thousand for a hunt, and wind up with a frozen trigger at the worst possible moment.
The next issue is the safety. The Winchester safety, which locks the striker, is the best. In addition, Remington, in responding to their own safety problems, removed the bolt hold-down feature of their safety. As a result, you can inadvertently slightly crack the bolt open a fraction of an inch (while crawling through a blow-down for example) and now your rifle is going to go "click" when you squeeze the trigger.
The irony is, you can buy a Winchester style 3-position safety for the Model 700 -- but why should I pay extra for something Remington ought to include on the rifle?
The next issue is the safety. The Winchester safety, which locks the striker, is the best. In addition, Remington, in responding to their own safety problems, removed the bolt hold-down feature of their safety. As a result, you can inadvertently slightly crack the bolt open a fraction of an inch (while crawling through a blow-down for example) and now your rifle is going to go "click" when you squeeze the trigger.
The irony is, you can buy a Winchester style 3-position safety for the Model 700 -- but why should I pay extra for something Remington ought to include on the rifle?
This is such a softball topic ....real user?
I've never owned a Model 70l Winchester. Why, because I do a lot of shooting from the bench and hate controlled round feeding, which works better when loading from the magazine. I also don't like the feel of the action.
That said, the fit and finish of the Mod. 70 is superb and those that I've fired have been extremely accurate. I just have liked the Remington action over the years and after getting 3 or 4, decided to stick with something I knew well.
Still, my best hunting buddy from years past likes his Model 70s. Viva la difference!
That said, the fit and finish of the Mod. 70 is superb and those that I've fired have been extremely accurate. I just have liked the Remington action over the years and after getting 3 or 4, decided to stick with something I knew well.
Still, my best hunting buddy from years past likes his Model 70s. Viva la difference!
sage5907
Member
I view the Model 70 as more of a hunting rifle and the Model 700 as more of a target rifle or precision shooting rifle. When you get into a serious hunting situation the Model 70 is the best choice because it will help you close the deal with fewer problems. I can run through the brush with a Model 70 without worrying about the bolt handle coming up. I can cycle the cartridges through the barrel on a Model 70 with the safety on. If you cycle a Model 700 bolt quickly and foolishly pull the bolt back in the middle of the stroke it will double load a cartridge which will jam the action. I can open and close the floorplate on a Model 70 with gloves on. I can load and unload a Model 70 in the dark with gloves on without dropping the cartridges. The trigger on a Model 700 will stick when it is obstructed with ice or dirt. If you get too rough with a 700 bolt the bolt handle will break off while the Winchester has a one piece bolt. The Winchester 70 cocking piece and firing pin assembly screw out easily for cleaning. Although the coned breaching system on the Model 70 gets negative press it will not cause problems with normal use even with the largest magnum cartridges. When a case fails in a Winchester it will blow gas into the shooters face. When a case fails in a Remington it will blow the cartridges out of the bottom of the box magazine. Both the Model 70 and Model 700 have large following and parts are easily available. Most of the high dollar Model 700 type actions are not made by Remington.
Last edited:
Corn-Picker
Member
What do you like as far as new production rifles? I see that the Montana Rifle Company actions have the Model 70 open trigger design, as well as most of the other Model 70 action features.
Not very similar, but they are replacements for each other. I own a nice example of both. Remington messed up big in my opinion offering the cheap variations of theirs. They went too cheap. There is some Winchester’s out there in tubberware stocks and with poor receiver finish, but not near as many. They do make good project donors, but they have done unrepairable brand damage to Remington.
If you buy the base model, there is a lot better options than either IMO. But if you want a nice wood stocked rifle you won’t go wrong either way.
If you buy the base model, there is a lot better options than either IMO. But if you want a nice wood stocked rifle you won’t go wrong either way.
old heeler
Member
I have model 70 and it has Bartlein barrel at 26" in McMillan stock, I also have Rem 700 30-06 also in McMillan stock with Shilen barrel @ 25.5". Both are chambered same reamer.
So far Rem bolt handle has fallen off or any problem with trigger @ -14 or any problem with safety. Prior to them having same chamber, I had Kreiger on Model 70 chamber 30-06 and 700 had Lilja chamber 30-06AI ( I neck up 280AI Nolser case).
I like both rifle.
So far Rem bolt handle has fallen off or any problem with trigger @ -14 or any problem with safety. Prior to them having same chamber, I had Kreiger on Model 70 chamber 30-06 and 700 had Lilja chamber 30-06AI ( I neck up 280AI Nolser case).
I like both rifle.
From 1964-1991 they were more similar than different.
Prior to 1964 the model 70 used a controlled round feed system with a huge extractor and simple, but very rugged blade type ejector. The 700 has always used a small piece of stamped sheet metal for the extractor with spring loaded button ejector. Between 1964 and 1991 the model 70 used a similar push feed action with the spring loaded ejector. The 70 still had a better extractor. From 1992 to the present the 70 was offered with the traditional CRF action. Between 1992-2006 they also offered the push feed version in their budget versions of the 70. After 2008 only CRF actions
700 actions are made from a round tube with a washer slid on over the barrel threads for a recoil lug. The 70 receiver is machined from a block of steel with the recoil lug all from the same piece.
The 700 bolt handles are soldered on and have a reputation for falling off.
The pre 2008 model 70's have the simplest, most rugged dependable trigger ever devised. They work dirty and can be cleaned easily. The pre 2007 700 has one of the most complex triggers and is fully enclosed making it impossible to inspect or clean. They have a well known reputation for firing without pulling the trigger. In 2007 Remington corrected the flawed design and is now safe to use. The 2008-current 70's use a similar trigger design to the current 700.
If you're looking for the most rugged, dependable rifle that will work in the harshest conditions a CRF 70 is one of the best. Between 1964 to 1992 Winchester had their share of troubles and while they were still a more rugged rifle,the 700 earned a reputation as the more accurate rifle. I'd take a 70 built in or after 1992 and expect it to match any 700 in accuracy.
They load and feed exactly the same. Any modern USA produced rifle will feed the top round just exactly like the PF rifles. That hasn't been the case since WW-2. Even many of the older rifles have been modified so that you don't have to load them from the magazine.
Prior to 1964 the model 70 used a controlled round feed system with a huge extractor and simple, but very rugged blade type ejector. The 700 has always used a small piece of stamped sheet metal for the extractor with spring loaded button ejector. Between 1964 and 1991 the model 70 used a similar push feed action with the spring loaded ejector. The 70 still had a better extractor. From 1992 to the present the 70 was offered with the traditional CRF action. Between 1992-2006 they also offered the push feed version in their budget versions of the 70. After 2008 only CRF actions
700 actions are made from a round tube with a washer slid on over the barrel threads for a recoil lug. The 70 receiver is machined from a block of steel with the recoil lug all from the same piece.
The 700 bolt handles are soldered on and have a reputation for falling off.
The pre 2008 model 70's have the simplest, most rugged dependable trigger ever devised. They work dirty and can be cleaned easily. The pre 2007 700 has one of the most complex triggers and is fully enclosed making it impossible to inspect or clean. They have a well known reputation for firing without pulling the trigger. In 2007 Remington corrected the flawed design and is now safe to use. The 2008-current 70's use a similar trigger design to the current 700.
If you're looking for the most rugged, dependable rifle that will work in the harshest conditions a CRF 70 is one of the best. Between 1964 to 1992 Winchester had their share of troubles and while they were still a more rugged rifle,the 700 earned a reputation as the more accurate rifle. I'd take a 70 built in or after 1992 and expect it to match any 700 in accuracy.
They load and feed exactly the same. Any modern USA produced rifle will feed the top round just exactly like the PF rifles. That hasn't been the case since WW-2. Even many of the older rifles have been modified so that you don't have to load them from the magazine.
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's where I would go for a new rifle -- to the Montana Rifle Company.
I might point out that when Carlos Hathcock set up the Marine Corps sniper program during the Viet Nam war, he chose the Model 70 Winchester -- but he wanted the pre-64 Model 70. Winchester stupidly refused to produce it. So Hathcock turned to Remington, and they said, "Yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full" and the rest is history.
sage5907
Member
I agree with Vern, if I wanted to buy a new rifle I would look to the Montana Rifle Company. Their standard rifle costs about $1.500. If I wanted a less expensive rifle I would buy a pre 64 Model 70. A good quality pre 64 Model 70 30-06 can still be purchased for about $750. When I buy a used rifle it's all about the condition of the metal because a cheap replacement stock can easily be purchased on eBay.
I will take the Montana barrel, trigger, and stock, but I will take the model 70 action. I have both, and the feeding and feel of the model 70 lockup is better. At least IME.
I've never liked the feel of the traditional Winchester Mod. 70 triggers. They are not as short and clean than a Remington-type trigger. That said, I've replaced most of my 700 triggers with Timneys and like those even better. They cost about $160, but well worth it, both in feel and safety.
That said, I've seen problems crop up on recent Remington 700s that are indications of cheapening the basic action. I may not buy another, but would look toward Tikka or other manufacturers who still make great rifles. A model 70 is not a consideration, more due to the bolt-mounted safety than anything else. (You either love or hate them.)
That said, I've seen problems crop up on recent Remington 700s that are indications of cheapening the basic action. I may not buy another, but would look toward Tikka or other manufacturers who still make great rifles. A model 70 is not a consideration, more due to the bolt-mounted safety than anything else. (You either love or hate them.)
dieselchief
Member
pull the firing pin assembly from both bolts. (good to clean excess factory grease out anyway). load the magazine. put the gun to your shoulder and work the bolt without lowering them till it is empty. tell me which works smoother, faster and feels better. hint hint> wont be the rem. dc.
mcb
Member
In an over pressure situation which do you want to be holding, hint hint> not the on with the Mauser bolt.
dieselchief
Member
not so sure about that. a true mauser bolt has a third lug, a gas shield on the cocking sleeve, vent holes and raceways. and a forged receiver not a piece of tube. however the guns we are talking about here are not known for blowing up.
po Ackley proved even a jap mauser was tough. but we digress here. dc.
po Ackley proved even a jap mauser was tough. but we digress here. dc.
mcb
Member
But the third lug does very little for you if the primary lugs on the bolt head fail. The third lug does not make the bolt head stronger or support the case head better. The 700 bolt head wraps the case head in three continuous rings of steel, bolt, barrel, and receiver. The two primary lugs on a Remington bolt are stronger than the Mauser style bolt due to no groves and other feature in the bolt body to support the external claw extractor of the Mauser action. The Mauser action has some very nice features but its hard to beat a Remington 700 for its raw strength at the chamber.
- Status
Similar threads
