Winchester Self Loading 1907

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Johnm1 said:
That is one of the French magazines.
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Yup, there is solid proof the French did make their own magazines. Really there is not a lot of reference material out on these guys....really an odd duck, one of the reason I like it....I like odd and off the wall things. As to my source on the no select fire, I really can't point to it, I know I did read it somewhere that I did respect, ReWatch the C&R video, and he usually sites sources on his web page. The only "real" specific book on it is that one I talked about before and it is really just a souped up reloading manual, and I think it is out of print now.....so you do have me, but if I was on final jeopardy I would bet it all on there was not a purpose built select fire or other type of full auto made....now could their be a issue with the gun that made it do that....sure, my first G43 shot 2 rounds then did a mag dump....that was a bit of a shocker.

They are cool guns, I like the design of them, they are sleek and smooth, elegant.....I like the 22's as well......but it is what it is.
 
These are fine old rifles. WE went with the model 1910 in caliber .401. (.408 groove) That is my weakness... anything in caliber 41 or so. Had all the molds and brass is easy to make from 7.62x39.
Shoot it before you tackle the buffer. One round will let you know. If it wacks like metal on metal... change that rubber buffer. No metal wack it is OK. Also the recoil spring should seem stiff. These are hot rounds. The 401 slings 250 grainers at near 2000 fps. That is as fast as our 414 Supermag Marlin 336 chunks the same lead gas checked bullet. 414 SM brass is .10 longer.
I would be thrilled to have a 10 round mag ! Have two 4 rounders. Also get yourself an AR "strap on " brass catcher. These beasts throw brass near as fast as the bullet leaves the barrel.
Mike in Peru
 
fpgt72 said:
Yup, there is solid proof the French did make their own magazines. Really there is not a lot of reference material out on these guys....really an odd duck, one of the reason I like it....I like odd and off the wall things. As to my source on the no select fire, I really can't point to it, I know I did read it somewhere that I did respect, ReWatch the C&R video, and he usually sites sources on his web page. The only "real" specific book on it is that one I talked about before and it is really just a souped up reloading manual, and I think it is out of print now.....so you do have me, but if I was on final jeopardy I would bet it all on there was not a purpose built select fire or other type of full auto made....now could their be a issue with the gun that made it do that....sure, my first G43 shot 2 rounds then did a mag dump....that was a bit of a shocker.

They are cool guns, I like the design of them, they are sleek and smooth, elegant.....I like the 22's as well......but it is what it is.
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They are cool guns, I like the design of them, they are sleek and smooth, elegant.....I like the 22's as well......but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]
fpgt72 said:
Yup, there is solid proof the French did make their own magazines. Really there is not a lot of reference material out on these guys....really an odd duck, one of the reason I like it....I like odd and off the wall things. As to my source on the no select fire, I really can't point to it, I know I did read it somewhere that I did respect, ReWatch the C&R video, and he usually sites sources on his web page. The only "real" specific book on it is that one I talked about before and it is really just a souped up reloading manual, and I think it is out of print now.....so you do have me, but if I was on final jeopardy I would bet it all on there was not a purpose built select fire or other type of full auto made....now could their be a issue with the gun that made it do that....sure, my first G43 shot 2 rounds then did a mag dump....that was a bit of a shocker.

They are cool guns, I like the design of them, they are sleek and smooth, elegant.....I like the 22's as well......but it is what it is.
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Gordon said:
View attachment 820183
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Nature Boy said:
I found this from a guy who has a 1907 with British proof marks and fitted with a bayonet lug. I assume this indicates it may have been sent “over there” for military duty

https://forums.gunboards.com/showth...British-proofs-but-no-retailer#/topics/418538

I’m intrigued
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Nature Boy said:
I think I may have found a picture of the select fire version of the 1907 with 20 round mag
That is a picture of a Police model made from 1937 to about 1938 - very rare. I have only seen 2. That magazine is definitely larger than the 10 rounders. This is the first picture I have seen of one of these. I had John Henwood's book "The Forgotten Winchesters" & no mention was made (to my recollection) of anything larger than 10 rounds made by Winchester, which, by the way were supposed to be fitted at the factory. I have to admit that anything is possible. It's too bad that Winchester had a fire & lost a lot of their records, but perhaps some at Cody would know.

View attachment 820314

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...hr-assault-rifle-developments-prior-1942/amp/
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Nature Boy said:
@351 WINCHESTER

What is that lever in front of the trigger guard? Could be an extended mag release...…..or something else?
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That is a mounting bracket for holding the rifle on the wall. That Police model did have a larger mag. release though that was made standard after that gun around 1938 or so. Sometime after that the heavier wood was adopted as was the steel butt plate.
 
Nature Boy said:
I think I may have found a picture of the select fire version of the 1907 with 20 round mag

View attachment 820314

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...hr-assault-rifle-developments-prior-1942/amp/
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I am going to stick by "my guns" and say yea...nope I think that is in error. On a balloon or in an aircraft is one thing. Supporting such an odd duck for "trench clearing" sorry no. TFB has had stuff stated that it could not support, and unless it can post up the french documents I am going to call BS on that. WWI was not really setup for having one rifle or even a dozen with an odd duck caliber in front line service. What this thing was used for was to put the service rifles that used the standard cartridge in the hands of people shooting, this was used in the air....we do know this, and likely in POW camps, rear areas. Just not logistically practicable at the time.

In WWI items when "odd duck" guns show up, for them to see "front line" service they need to be in the flavor of the standard cartridge, The winchester lever in Russia is the perfect example. Everywhere else without exception if a country used a arm in small amounts it had a very special role....and did not see front line service
 
fpgt72 said:
I am going to stick by "my guns" and say yea...nope I think that is in error. On a balloon or in an aircraft is one thing. Supporting such an odd duck for "trench clearing" sorry no. TFB has had stuff stated that it could not support, and unless it can post up the french documents I am going to call BS on that. WWI was not really setup for having one rifle or even a dozen with an odd duck caliber in front line service. What this thing was used for was to put the service rifles that used the standard cartridge in the hands of people shooting, this was used in the air....we do know this, and likely in POW camps, rear areas. Just not logistically practicable at the time.

In WWI items when "odd duck" guns show up, for them to see "front line" service they need to be in the flavor of the standard cartridge, The winchester lever in Russia is the perfect example. Everywhere else without exception if a country used a arm in small amounts it had a very special role....and did not see front line service[/QU How do you explain the numerous French .351 magazines that have been seen over the decades? I forget the exact number of .351's than France ordered, but if my memory is correct it was 2,500 & they were f/a. Gordon has a French mag (10round) There is a website that I have seen with a .351 with a French magazine & I have seen several French mags. pop up on ebay. The Germans developed snail mags for the Lugers for trench sweeping. I have even seen snail mags. on GB that were converted to the .351. Why wouldn't the French & the Brits. do the same? I think your point does not hold water, but you are entitled to your opinion.
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Sorry it was hard for me to pickout your post the quote somehow got screwed up.

The french magazines, they made them....at the time a magazine is a pretty complex affair, but for a gun that is going to have a very special roll, guards, balloon....whatever, having them make up magazines is not complex....for a drop in the bucket of 2500 guns....and that is nothing.....not a big deal. Bringing up the 9mm mags makes my point. This was a standard service cartridge, it was in the chain.....351 was not.......you have to remember the day and age here, we are not even a full step past the horse and buggy here, Trains bringing up supplies is a new thing, and even that had huge speed bumps in it with Belgian divisions getting Lebel or 303 ammo, not what they needed....you are talking about a gun that was in the country at a tune of 2500, you know all 2500 are not in the same place, you know the supply issues saying....ok last week 4 army 23 division, 2 company, Platoon 1, squad 3 had Fred there with a 351, we better send him a few hundred rounds....oh wait fred is now dead he got hit by a 15cm, and all we found of him and his rifle was a left shoe.....we will just send those 200 rounds back as paul over in the 45 division has one of those.....no man you forgot paul got his arm shot off, went right through the rifle......

you see how silly this is.....It is impossible to do this in that day and age, they are lucky if they got food, and ammo without grave robbing.....it is not going to happen.

But I know I will never change your mind, but I do suggest you do some reading on the supply issues in WWI, that might change your mind, but I still doubt it.....you are in love and that is cool, but I think your love is blinding you to the reality of that conflict.
 
Interesting thread and a fascinating rifle. Looking back over 100 years, two world wars, many smaller wars, and countless police actions and prison duties, this rifle is far more significant when considered in retrospect.

Given the wide variety of uses and long service life, this was a successful design in all but one thing: It was not a popular hunting rifle. When I first saw one back in the 1960's, I remember thinking that it was a heavy rifle with a wimpy cartridge that no one would ever want to use. But I was only beginning to learn about hunting at the time.

Its significance is that it is a precursor design in function (semi- and full-automatic), ergonomics (easy to handle, fast to reload), cartridge power (note the "radical" new larger bore cartridges for the MSR platforms), light recoil, etc. In that respect, the development of the assault rifles (M-1 Carbine, SKS, AK-47, AR-15) are all variations to refine or fit different aspects of the design criteria.

I don't really think it can be considered as an odd-ball or "one off". It is more of a pioneer.
 
Dr T said:
Interesting thread and a fascinating rifle. Looking back over 100 years, two world wars, many smaller wars, and countless police actions and prison duties, this rifle is far more significant when considered in retrospect.

Given the wide variety of uses and long service life, this was a successful design in all but one thing: It was not a popular hunting rifle. When I first saw one back in the 1960's, I remember thinking that it was a heavy rifle with a wimpy cartridge that no one would ever want to use. But I was only beginning to learn about hunting at the time.

Its significance is that it is a precursor design in function (semi- and full-automatic), ergonomics (easy to handle, fast to reload), cartridge power (note the "radical" new larger bore cartridges for the MSR platforms), light recoil, etc. In that respect, the development of the assault rifles (M-1 Carbine, SKS, AK-47, AR-15) are all variations to refine or fit different aspects of the design criteria.

I don't really think it can be considered as an odd-ball or "one off". It is more of a pioneer.
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Yes....and you did touch on something that it was good for....a law enforcement arm. It was really hotter then the common hand gun of the day, but not up to "real" rifle power. Only issue was they are still spendy, and after the war for the first decade law enforcement really did not need it....when they decided to take the country dry, that is when all hell broke loose, and people using fast cars, with heavy steel, the fuzz needed something with a little more oomph....As I remember (and I don't remember the source) winchester tried to market this to law enforcement, just like remington did with the 8, but again it really did not take off....cool part about the 8 is they got modified just up the road from me in St. Joe missouri....pretty cool.....but I have gotten yelled at for bringing in the guns direct competitor into the thread. I think it would be the perfect "intermediate" cartridge 1800fps is nothing to sneeze at and really nothing was really in that range, faster then the hand guns that would not work on cars of the time, and rifles that buzzed along at 2000+fps with much higher chance of over pen....but that again was not really a worry back then.....different times. 38 super buzzed along at 1400ish fps IIRC, and that was really for more oomph, I guess the just a little more oomph was not seen as an advantage, and they just went full on Frank Hamer and went for the full blown deal.
 
fpgt72 said:
......This was a standard service cartridge, it was in the chain.....351 was not.......you have to remember the day and age here, we are not even a full step past the horse and buggy here, Trains bringing up supplies is a new thing........you see how silly this is.....It is impossible to do this in that day and age, they are lucky if they got food, and ammo without grave robbing.....it is not going to happen.
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This is from the source I linked to that you obviously didn't read

"To offset the high volume of fire, the magazines were lengthened from their original 5-/10-round capacities to 15- and 20-round counts. One of the sticking points of the Model 1907, however, was its use of the unique .351 Winchester cartridge which forced the French to order some 1.5 million cartridges with their new guns. In keeping with small arms long gun design of the period, the Model 1907s were also outfitted with mountings for a field bayonet."

fpgt72 said:
I do suggest you do some reading on the supply issues in WWI
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Maybe you should. Resupply via rail was not new. It was used extensively during the American Civil war. WW1 was a static conflict. Army's weren't moving much. Aside from the normal difficulty of logistics during wartime, transportation of supplies to the front was not the challenge you make it out to be. But hey, you want to be regarded as the resident expert on the 1907 specifically, and WW1 in general, fine by me.

Here's a pic I found attributed as a French dispatch rider with a 1907 slung over his shoulder. Pretty cool. (Edit: definitely post WW1)

b2b17c09d9f03f486ea96801bf89af7d.jpg
 
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Nature Boy said:
This is from the source I linked to that you obviously didn't read

"To offset the high volume of fire, the magazines were lengthened from their original 5-/10-round capacities to 15- and 20-round counts. One of the sticking points of the Model 1907, however, was its use of the unique .351 Winchester cartridge which forced the French to order some 1.5 million cartridges with their new guns. In keeping with small arms long gun design of the period, the Model 1907s were also outfitted with mountings for a field bayonet."



Maybe you should. Resupply via rail was not new. It was used extensively during the American Civil war. WW1 was a static conflict. Army's weren't moving much. Aside from the normal difficulty of logistics during wartime, transportation of supplies to the front was not the challenge you make it out to be. But hey, you want to be regarded as the resident expert on the 1907 specifically, and WW1 in general, fine by me.

Here's a pic I found of a French dispatch rider during The Great War with a 1907 slung over his shoulder. Pretty cool. (Edit: photo may be captioned wrong. Bike looks more WW2 vintage, which would begs the question: 1907 in WWII?)

View attachment 820468
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That sounds like a lot of ammo.....but it is not. And I did read it.

I see I am pounding my head against a brick wall....you really need to read a few books.....this war started with magazine cutoffs so people would not "waste ammo" and this thought went in pretty deep into the war. Resupply was new, this war is not called the first industrial war for a reason, one maxim would shoot in an hour what an entire company would shoot in an entire battle in the civil war.

We will just leave it at that.

IIRC France took them out of service in the 1920's but you will not believe that as well.....heck pal they are still using them to this day....there does that make you happy.

Thread is dead to me....don't bother quoting anymore, you will never see past your own conclusions.
 
Speedo66 said:
Could the motorcycle rider be police rather than military?
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Poked around on the net and deciphered that the motorcycle is almost certainly a late 30's early 40's vintage Ariel, made in GB and used by the allies during WW2. This picture is pretty definitive.

ariel-racer-motorcycle_lg.jpg

It would be evidence that the 1907 continued to see service in France leading up to WW2. Whether he's a policeman or military is anyone's guess
 
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Nature Boy said:
Poked around on the net and deciphered that the motorcycle is almost certainly a late 30's early 40's vintage Ariel, made in GB and used by the allies during WW2. This picture is pretty definitive.

View attachment 820618

It would be evidence that the 1907 continued to see service in France leading up to WW2. Whether he's a policeman or military is anyone's guess
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When I saw that picture I knew it was way more modern than WWI. You can't keep a good gun down!
 
The bickering about a quaint old obsolete gun is amazing to me. It was liked for it's reliablity. No i't no .35 Remington and the JMB designs and the slick little Remingon pumps too are far better. The gun was used alot as a trunk gun for LEO and prison guards up thru the 1950s without question and they were not stupid. The French bought about anything that would reliably go bang in WW!, look at the Ruby pistols ! The only reason I posted mine is I am at the age :( when I have to get rid of the Curios and cut the herd down to ever decreasing levels I can use and my children or grand children might have an interest in. Fairwell to the 1907 Winchester !
 
If anybody wants one, I have a friend that’s selling his along with quite a bit of ammo

PM me and I’ll give you his contact info
 
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