Winchester Self Loading 1907

[351 WINCHESTER]

Reading more about this rifle, it saw duty in WWI with France, GB, Russia and the US.

France converted them to full auto and fitted them with 20 round magazines.

Very interesting

My Grandfather was in the Mexican Campaign in 1916 with Gen. Pershing trying to get some Mexican bandits & the 1907 or 07 Winchester was there for use in their aircraft. Actually the French had Winchester do the conversions. Winchester had to make the triggers heavy to keep them from going full auto so I imagine the conversion was pretty simple.

 

[Gordon]

Here are some shots

 

[Gordon]

Sorry about doubles

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Here are some shots View attachment 820003 View attachment 820003 View attachment 820004 View attachment 820005 View attachment 820004 View attachment 820005

That's a fine 07 for sure. That mag. looks like it was made in France, but it's hard to tell. I know it's not Winchester. Can you write out the words for me? Thanks, Ken

 

[Nature Boy]

That's a fine 07 for sure. That mag. looks like it was made in France, but it's hard to tell. I know it's not Winchester. Can you write out the words for me? Thanks, Ken

If so, would it be one of those 20 round mags made for their full auto model? It would have to be pretty rare

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

If so, would it be one of those 20 round mags made for their full auto model? It would have to be pretty rare

I have only seen pictures of the French made mags. They were almost identical to Winchester from what I could see in the pictures. I'm beginning to think the 15 & 20 round mags. are folklore or just a figment of someone's imagination. I have seen a picture of a highly modified 07 used in Cuba having a snail magazine. There were 2 snail mags. on Gunbroker a while back that the seller claimed were for the 07 & indeed they looked as if they were fitted for it. I don't think they worked well according to the seller.

 

[Gordon]

because my long mag pictured binds when loaded past 6 I don't know how many it holds BUT it is same length to what Ken says is 10 rounds. I had a 15 round Remington model 8 mag for a while, it was also in poor condition and had State police markings . I think a 20 round mag for the 1907 Winchester would be very unweildy and not hold up very well. The 5 round mags change real quick, my long mag is hard to get in and out. That gun is 7 feet off the ground and loaded in my man cave near my work bench. The folding H&R .410 under it is loaded too with shot.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

because my long mag pictured binds when loaded past 6 I don't know how many it holds BUT it is same length to what Ken says is 10 rounds. I had a 15 round Remington model 8 mag for a while, it was also in poor condition and had State police markings . I think a 20 round mag for the 1907 Winchester would be very unweildy and not hold up very well. The 5 round mags change real quick, my long mag is hard to get in and out. That gun is 7 feet off the ground and loaded in my man cave near my work bench. The folding H&R .410 under it is loaded too with shot.

Gordon, could you spell the markings on that mag. for me please?

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I have had a .351SL since the mid-1980's and was lucky enough to collect around 300 rounds of original ammo for it. It is an accurate gun out to 100 yards if you practice enough, although I can swear that you can see the back of the bullet as it leaves the barrel, it seems to have somewhat of a softball trajectory but is a big enough hunk of lead to do serious damage when it hits. The biggest problem of shooting it is to keep your finger away from the action road extending from the forearm so as to avoid very painful blood blisters as the end of the rod pinches your finger between the charging pad and the forearm when the action cycles. I wrote a letter to Winchester when I first acquired mine (around 1984) and received a very nice letter in return about the use of the 1907SL by the Texas Rangers, the Army Expeditionary Force reconnaissance pilots in WWI, and other law enforcement agencies. I haven't shot mine in years but it is a wonderful piece of history. Mine came out of a collection in Oklahoma and is covered with ivory inlays of a feathered pattern, a Masonic emblem on the cheek side of the butt, and silver studding around the periphery of the buttstock and forearm piece. I would trade it for any of the other firearms in my collection.

 

[Nature Boy]

Mine came out of a collection in Oklahoma and is covered with ivory inlays of a feathered pattern, a Masonic emblem on the cheek side of the butt, and silver studding around the periphery of the buttstock and forearm piece.

Man! Post some pics of that thing!

 

[Mowgli Terry]

OK, tell everybody how much those rifles weight. Also share how easy to operate the action as in chambering a round. How far does the brass go on ejection. Interesting old rifles with a history.

 

[kcofohio]

OK, tell everybody how much those rifles weight. Also share how easy to operate the action as in chambering a round. How far does the brass go on ejection. Interesting old rifles with a history.

Weight and build wise, I'd think more than enough to crack the skull if it came to that

 

[fpgt72]

Don't underestimate the .351. It opens up quick, penetrates & destroys meat like you would not believe. On paper it seems anemic, but it is more than adequate in the hands of a good shot out to about 100 yds. for deer/hog.

I agree, but to say it is about the same as 35 Remington is uninformed at best. I would say 351 is more along the lines of 30 carbine....yea it can do the job. To qualify cartridges as adequate for deer or hog if you are a good shot, then you can say 22 short is adequate as well if you are a good shot.

Not my intent to "dis" the 351, but it did not do well in the market because it was not a "real" rifle round, They are very interesting to me, but the cartridge is what it is, and that is basically in the same ball park as 30 carbine.

 

[fpgt72]

Reading more about this rifle, it saw duty in WWI with France, GB, Russia and the US.

France converted them to full auto and fitted them with 20 round magazines.

Very interesting

Someone has been watching C&Rsenal.....they did do a good show on them, and managed to put out just enough info for people with zero knowledge on them a month before to sound like they are an expert. I would recheck your claim on the "full auto" version however.

There was a book, it is out of print now and you will pay dear for it if you can find it, Winchester model 07 by Speklin....or something to that effect is what you want to go to, not really so much the history and uses of the gun, there is some of that in there, but this is really a reloading manual.....I guess I would call it that, I would bet our poster 351 has it.....I don't own this book, but I have seen it, it is a paper back and not what I would call a deep dive in the history and different flavors of the rifle.

All of these "collector" books seem to come and go quite quickly, and are never in print very long, you have to jump when you see it and be ready to pay in the area of $100 for the book. So you have to really be into them to want the book, this is why they have short runs. I have the Remington 8-81 book....I want to say it is called the Great 8 or something to that effect.....eh screw it...going to look it up.

Yup the great Remington 8 by henwood, looks like Amazon has a copy for ~$120, not too bad for a collector book. It does talk a little about the winchester rifles as they did fight for the same bit of the market at about the same time....but it is not a winchester book it is a Remington book.

I would say if you really like the "feel" I guess I would say, look at the 22 versions.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I saw an 07 on Gunbroker that had a strange barrel. It turned out to be stainless steel as was stamped on the barrel. I know that Winchester made some stainless barrels for the .220 Swift.

I have had a .351SL since the mid-1980's and was lucky enough to collect around 300 rounds of original ammo for it. It is an accurate gun out to 100 yards if you practice enough, although I can swear that you can see the back of the bullet as it leaves the barrel, it seems to have somewhat of a softball trajectory but is a big enough hunk of lead to do serious damage when it hits. The biggest problem of shooting it is to keep your finger away from the action road extending from the forearm so as to avoid very painful blood blisters as the end of the rod pinches your finger between the charging pad and the forearm when the action cycles. I wrote a letter to Winchester when I first acquired mine (around 1984) and received a very nice letter in return about the use of the 1907SL by the Texas Rangers, the Army Expeditionary Force reconnaissance pilots in WWI, and other law enforcement agencies. I haven't shot mine in years but it is a wonderful piece of history. Mine came out of a collection in Oklahoma and is covered with ivory inlays of a feathered pattern, a Masonic emblem on the cheek side of the butt, and silver studding around the periphery of the buttstock and forearm piece. I would trade it for any of the other firearms in my collection.

I would very much like a copy of that letter if you still have it.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

OK, tell everybody how much those rifles weight. Also share how easy to operate the action as in chambering a round. How far does the brass go on ejection. Interesting old rifles with a history.

With original factory ammo it tosses the brass 7' or more. With modern, downloaded ammo somewhat less.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I agree, but to say it is about the same as 35 Remington is uninformed at best. I would say 351 is more along the lines of 30 carbine....yea it can do the job. To qualify cartridges as adequate for deer or hog if you are a good shot, then you can say 22 short is adequate as well if you are a good shot.

Not my intent to "dis" the 351, but it did not do well in the market because it was not a "real" rifle round, They are very interesting to me, but the cartridge is what it is, and that is basically in the same ball park as 30 carbine.

As a hunter, I have shot game with my .351's and at "normal" hunting ranges up to an including 100 yards or so it damages more meat than you could ever imagine. When I was a kid I hunted with a group that had 3 members who shot the .351. I remember one of the hunters wives cursing "that darn .351." It ruined too much meat. The .351 is closer to the .35 Rem. than it is to the .30 carbine.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

We were shooting a 351 and a Model 8 last year at the same time. The empties from the 351 were still gaining speed at 7'. So-called retarded straight blow back is noted for hard ejection. My Model 81 will toss brass further than 7 feet. A comparison between the Remington and Winchester don't fly. Those rifles are too different. For me it is important to remember that the 351 was the last of three different variations of that design. Browning trumped all self-self loading hunting rifles with the Model 8. Ditto the Remington Model 11 with shotguns.

 

[Nature Boy]

I would recheck your claim on the "full auto" version however.

Easy there fella. I'm not "claiming" anything. I knew nothing about this rifle before reading this thread. The rest of what I've gathered has come from the internet, so I'll defer to your expertise (or anyone's for that matter) on the subject.

 

[fpgt72]

As a hunter, I have shot game with my .351's and at "normal" hunting ranges up to an including 100 yards or so it damages more meat than you could ever imagine. When I was a kid I hunted with a group that had 3 members who shot the .351. I remember one of the hunters wives cursing "that darn .351." It ruined too much meat. The .351 is closer to the .35 Rem. than it is to the .30 carbine.

Never said it could not work.

Also from that great source on the internets...all are from the same place, and are easy to cut and paste, but this is pretty middle of the road for them

351 wsl
180 gr (12 g) 1,870 ft/s (570 m/s) 1,400 ft⋅lbf (1,900 J)

35 remington
200 gr (13 g) Lead FN 2,084 ft/s (635 m/s) 1,929 ft⋅lbf (2,615 J)
180 gr (12 g) FN 2,122 ft/s (647 m/s) 1,800 ft⋅lbf (2,400 J)
200 gr (13 g) RN 2,071 ft/s (631 m/s) 1,905 ft⋅lbf (2,583 J)
200 gr (13 g) FTX (Hornady Flex Tip Expanding)[2] 2,225 ft/s (678 m/s) 2,198 ft⋅lbf (2,980 J)

30 carbine
110 gr (7 g) FMJ 606.5 m/s (1,990 ft/s) 1,311 J (967 ft⋅lbf)

30-30
110 gr (7 g) FP 2,684 ft/s (818 m/s) 1,760 ft⋅lbf (2,390 J)
130 gr (8 g) FP 2,496 ft/s (761 m/s) 1,799 ft⋅lbf (2,439 J)
150 gr (10 g) FN 2,390 ft/s (730 m/s) 1,903 ft⋅lbf (2,580 J)
160 gr (10 g) cast LFN 2,330 ft/s (710 m/s) 1,929 ft⋅lbf (2,615 J)
170 gr (11 g) FP 2,227 ft/s (679 m/s) 1,873 ft⋅lbf (2,539 J)

357
125 gr (8 g) JHP Federal 1,450 ft/s (440 m/s) 583 ft⋅lbf (790 J)
158 gr (10 g) JHP Federal 1,240 ft/s (380 m/s) 539 ft⋅lbf (731 J)


35 remington is hitting a lot harder, 30 carbine and 351 are a bit off, but bullet weight has a bit to play here, we all know the argument when does going faster=having more mass, and I will leave that to the 5.7x28 folks to hash out, but I think the jury is in on that.

As to the 351 we may have to agree to disagree, I would say just get yourself a 357 lever gun if you want something that is going to do the same as the old 351.

Sorry to say but the winchesters are really a market failure, that does not mean I don't like them, i love them and have been on the hunt for a "good" 351 and 401 for a few years, just have not found one in the shape I like for the price I will pay....a little like the savage 99 in 22hp, I can't find one that lines up.

It is a blow back rifle, and that system does not lend itself to high powered cartridges. This is also why it has to have all that weight on it, it needs the mass to get the thing to work right. 351 was also just not a well received hunting cartridge, it is marginal, this is why the 401 came out, give it a little more oomph. It was a gun rushed into production to go against the Remington auto loaders. And those are just much stronger actions....and why you can shoot things like 300 savage, as well as the special remington cartridges, 35 remington being put in lever guns for years, and thought of as a good sporting cartridge for deer sized game.

We will just have to differ on this.

 

[fpgt72]

We were shooting a 351 and a Model 8 last year at the same time. The empties from the 351 were still gaining speed at 7'. So-called retarded straight blow back is noted for hard ejection. My Model 81 will toss brass further than 7 feet. A comparison between the Remington and Winchester don't fly. Those rifles are too different. For me it is important to remember that the 351 was the last of three different variations of that design. Browning trumped all self-self loading hunting rifles with the Model 8. Ditto the Remington Model 11 with shotguns.

The 8 and 81 are pretty complex guys however, all that stuff on the sides....it is cool how the machine in that works, The winchester just about as simple as simple can get. Do we want to talk about the winchester shot gun....it falls into the same group as the self loading rifles, it was not a sales success, but this time because it was a flat stupid idea, the rifles failed because the gun could not take a "real" rifle cartridge.

 

[fpgt72]

Easy there fella. I'm not "claiming" anything. I knew nothing about this rifle before reading this thread. The rest of what I've gathered has come from the internet, so I'll defer to your expertise (or anyone's for that matter) on the subject.

Sorry you made the statement that
"France converted them to full auto and fitted them with 20 round magazines."

In my book that is a claim.

 

[Nature Boy]

Sorry you made the statement that
"France converted them to full auto and fitted them with 20 round magazines."

In my book that is a claim.

And I said that I read it on the internet, just like I'm reading what you say, on the internet. Here's my source that says they were converted to full auto for service with the French Army during WWI. Not saying that it's correct, but this is where I got the info

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=912

Where's your source that they weren't?

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I'm confused about the Winchester Self-Loading time line. Looks like the 1907 outlived the 1905's by many years. The 1905 was gone in 1920. The 1907 IIRC was discontinued in the late 1950's. Other sources report a report later dates. These rifles are interesting as is. It would be a good thing to stay on 1907's or 1905's. Lots of history with that rifle. Bringing in Model 8's muddies up the pond. How about we compare the 1907 to the current BAR in 338 Magnum. Getting a 351 or 401 running is a challenge. I remember one shooter in the 1970's making brass for a 401 from 35 Remington cases. I have felt that Winchester was doing as well as they could. It took some effort to get around Browning patents. The main problem with the 1907 rifle was weight to power of the cartridges. Also,time had kinda left the Self-Loaders behind.

 

[Gordon]

Gordon, could you spell the markings on that mag. for me please?