That is one of the French magazines.
That is one of the French magazines.
Yup, there is solid proof the French did make their own magazines. Really there is not a lot of reference material out on these guys....really an odd duck, one of the reason I like it....I like odd and off the wall things. As to my source on the no select fire, I really can't point to it, I know I did read it somewhere that I did respect, ReWatch the C&R video, and he usually sites sources on his web page. The only "real" specific book on it is that one I talked about before and it is really just a souped up reloading manual, and I think it is out of print now.....so you do have me, but if I was on final jeopardy I would bet it all on there was not a purpose built select fire or other type of full auto made....now could their be a issue with the gun that made it do that....sure, my first G43 shot 2 rounds then did a mag dump....that was a bit of a shocker.
They are cool guns, I like the design of them, they are sleek and smooth, elegant.....I like the 22's as well......but it is what it is.
Yup, there is solid proof the French did make their own magazines. Really there is not a lot of reference material out on these guys....really an odd duck, one of the reason I like it....I like odd and off the wall things. As to my source on the no select fire, I really can't point to it, I know I did read it somewhere that I did respect, ReWatch the C&R video, and he usually sites sources on his web page. The only "real" specific book on it is that one I talked about before and it is really just a souped up reloading manual, and I think it is out of print now.....so you do have me, but if I was on final jeopardy I would bet it all on there was not a purpose built select fire or other type of full auto made....now could their be a issue with the gun that made it do that....sure, my first G43 shot 2 rounds then did a mag dump....that was a bit of a shocker.
They are cool guns, I like the design of them, they are sleek and smooth, elegant.....I like the 22's as well......but it is what it is.
I found this from a guy who has a 1907 with British proof marks and fitted with a bayonet lug. I assume this indicates it may have been sent “over there” for military duty
https://forums.gunboards.com/showth...British-proofs-but-no-retailer#/topics/418538
I’m intrigued
I think I may have found a picture of the select fire version of the 1907 with 20 round mag
That is a picture of a Police model made from 1937 to about 1938 - very rare. I have only seen 2. That magazine is definitely larger than the 10 rounders. This is the first picture I have seen of one of these. I had John Henwood's book "The Forgotten Winchesters" & no mention was made (to my recollection) of anything larger than 10 rounds made by Winchester, which, by the way were supposed to be fitted at the factory. I have to admit that anything is possible. It's too bad that Winchester had a fire & lost a lot of their records, but perhaps some at Cody would know.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...hr-assault-rifle-developments-prior-1942/amp/
That is a mounting bracket for holding the rifle on the wall. That Police model did have a larger mag. release though that was made standard after that gun around 1938 or so. Sometime after that the heavier wood was adopted as was the steel butt plate.@351 WINCHESTER
What is that lever in front of the trigger guard? Could be an extended mag release...…..or something else?
I think I may have found a picture of the select fire version of the 1907 with 20 round mag
View attachment 820314
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...hr-assault-rifle-developments-prior-1942/amp/
I am going to stick by "my guns" and say yea...nope I think that is in error. On a balloon or in an aircraft is one thing. Supporting such an odd duck for "trench clearing" sorry no. TFB has had stuff stated that it could not support, and unless it can post up the french documents I am going to call BS on that. WWI was not really setup for having one rifle or even a dozen with an odd duck caliber in front line service. What this thing was used for was to put the service rifles that used the standard cartridge in the hands of people shooting, this was used in the air....we do know this, and likely in POW camps, rear areas. Just not logistically practicable at the time.
In WWI items when "odd duck" guns show up, for them to see "front line" service they need to be in the flavor of the standard cartridge, The winchester lever in Russia is the perfect example. Everywhere else without exception if a country used a arm in small amounts it had a very special role....and did not see front line service[/QU How do you explain the numerous French .351 magazines that have been seen over the decades? I forget the exact number of .351's than France ordered, but if my memory is correct it was 2,500 & they were f/a. Gordon has a French mag (10round) There is a website that I have seen with a .351 with a French magazine & I have seen several French mags. pop up on ebay. The Germans developed snail mags for the Lugers for trench sweeping. I have even seen snail mags. on GB that were converted to the .351. Why wouldn't the French & the Brits. do the same? I think your point does not hold water, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Interesting thread and a fascinating rifle. Looking back over 100 years, two world wars, many smaller wars, and countless police actions and prison duties, this rifle is far more significant when considered in retrospect.
Given the wide variety of uses and long service life, this was a successful design in all but one thing: It was not a popular hunting rifle. When I first saw one back in the 1960's, I remember thinking that it was a heavy rifle with a wimpy cartridge that no one would ever want to use. But I was only beginning to learn about hunting at the time.
Its significance is that it is a precursor design in function (semi- and full-automatic), ergonomics (easy to handle, fast to reload), cartridge power (note the "radical" new larger bore cartridges for the MSR platforms), light recoil, etc. In that respect, the development of the assault rifles (M-1 Carbine, SKS, AK-47, AR-15) are all variations to refine or fit different aspects of the design criteria.
I don't really think it can be considered as an odd-ball or "one off". It is more of a pioneer.
......This was a standard service cartridge, it was in the chain.....351 was not.......you have to remember the day and age here, we are not even a full step past the horse and buggy here, Trains bringing up supplies is a new thing........you see how silly this is.....It is impossible to do this in that day and age, they are lucky if they got food, and ammo without grave robbing.....it is not going to happen.
I do suggest you do some reading on the supply issues in WWI
This is from the source I linked to that you obviously didn't read
"To offset the high volume of fire, the magazines were lengthened from their original 5-/10-round capacities to 15- and 20-round counts. One of the sticking points of the Model 1907, however, was its use of the unique .351 Winchester cartridge which forced the French to order some 1.5 million cartridges with their new guns. In keeping with small arms long gun design of the period, the Model 1907s were also outfitted with mountings for a field bayonet."
Maybe you should. Resupply via rail was not new. It was used extensively during the American Civil war. WW1 was a static conflict. Army's weren't moving much. Aside from the normal difficulty of logistics during wartime, transportation of supplies to the front was not the challenge you make it out to be. But hey, you want to be regarded as the resident expert on the 1907 specifically, and WW1 in general, fine by me.
Here's a pic I found of a French dispatch rider during The Great War with a 1907 slung over his shoulder. Pretty cool. (Edit: photo may be captioned wrong. Bike looks more WW2 vintage, which would begs the question: 1907 in WWII?)
View attachment 820468
Could the motorcycle rider be police rather than military?
When I saw that picture I knew it was way more modern than WWI. You can't keep a good gun down!Poked around on the net and deciphered that the motorcycle is almost certainly a late 30's early 40's vintage Ariel, made in GB and used by the allies during WW2. This picture is pretty definitive.
View attachment 820618
It would be evidence that the 1907 continued to see service in France leading up to WW2. Whether he's a policeman or military is anyone's guess