Winchester Shotguns

[hdwhit]

Thank you for the insights into Winchester pump shotguns. My father bought a Winchester pump in the mid-1970's. The bars connecting the thin wall tube to the bolt were spot welded. The spot welds lasted about 100 rounds. Rather than return it to Winchester and get a replacement he feared would do the same thing, he took it to a local welder who reattached them with a bronze braze that lasted until he gave the gun away to a friend about the time he turned 80.

 

[hdwhit]

DDDWho wrote:
To my mind Winchester's glory days ended in 1964. They started making more cost effective guns consequently quality suffered. They did reintroduce the Model 12 a bit later but it had stamping and was not all machined. The innards of a Model 12 (pre 64) were made to last more than 1 lifetime.

From what I know of pre-64 Winchesters, I would be inclined to agree. I also understand that building guns that would last a lifetime (or more) was not a sustainable business model once the number of guns in civilian circulation hit an effective saturation point.

 

[cdb1]

I’m sure I’m in the minority but I’d rather have a current Model 70 than a pre-64, especially a late pre-64.

 

[eastbank]

lest you think I don,t like win md 12,s, here are three of them,20ga,16ga,12ga. lets see 1912 to 1964 = 52 years Winchester model 12,s. rem model 870,s 1950-2017=67 years and still being made. Remington saw the writing on the wall and knew things had to change to stay in the game and went from the model 31(all steel-wood in 1949 to the 870 in 1950 and the rest has be firearm history. and as far as being what one is a better shooter, rudy etchan shot 100-100 straight trap doubles two times with the same 870 years apart. I love my model 12,s and hunt them and shoot trap with a fake trap model 12 that some one put trap wood and a money maker rib on a 1958 field 30" f.c. 12ga. eastbank.

 

[Big D]

I think most everyone will agree most everything made in the days of yore was typically of higher quality material and made with more attention to detail. We do however, live in the here and now, the present. With that in mind, even present day 870s are not what they were.....heck even Colt 1911's are manufactured differently and are to a lot of people not on par with the Colt's of days past. I say all that to mention, apparently as one of the few owners of a current Winchester SXP, the SXP is a well made shotgun. The bolt is rotary in design, just like an AR. Just about every model, including the defense models, is threaded for a choke tube in addition to the chamber being back-bored and chromed. It also has the fastest and smoothest operating pump action of any shotgun I have ever owned. The action does actually assist in cycling the pump. The pump will automatically cycle low brass cheapo bird shot with no hand on the forend (the pump with move rearward, ejecting the empty; all that remains is to cycle the pump forward to chamber another round)

I do believe it to be funny that people write off a gun just because of where it is made without objectively examining it's qualities. Even the Weatherby shotguns are made in Turkey, just like the Winchester

From my experience, it appears that the new Winchester SXP is every bit as good of a shotgun as the Remington 870/Mossberg 500. Every manufacturer has cut costs somewhere to deliver a cost effective but affordable product. For years now the current manufacturer 870s have been complained about as being unreliable. I do know the finish on a base model Express is absolutely horrible. I purchased a new 870 Police several years ago, and have not had a problem with it (key factor was it being a Police model). Mossberg for example, has gone to a forend that consists of action bars which are molded/pinned on. Probably the two largest factors that sway people away from Winchester is the fact that it does not have a large aftermarket accessory following and most people always recommend either Mossberg and Remington. If you want a simple, reliable, inexpensive shotgun that you will use and not accessorize, I would highly recommend the new Winchester SXP.

 

[cdb1]

Same reason I can't wear cowboy boots anymore. Moccasins are de rigeur any more for me.ots anymore. Moccasins are de rigeur any more for me.

I have really bad feed stemming from years of wearing ill-fitting shoes. I have very narrow heels, my width is EEEE, my foot measures 11 but my arch measures out to size 16. Started wearing good footwear in my 20’s but the damage had been done. Since then I wear the absolute most expensive boots and shoes I can find, and I also wear orthotics. My feet still hurt but not as much.

My feet literally tear up inexpensive footwear, they change the shape and make them look funky. I wear cowboy boots all the time. The difference between cheap cowboy boots(Justin) and good cowboy boots(Rios of Mercedes) is night and day. Good cowboy boots are about the least painful footwear for me along with really good hiking boots.

 

[Riomouse911]

I will opine that the lock on the police market by 870's, and to a lesser extent the Ithaca 37, and the Mossberg 590 with more recent military users really keep these two (870-500/590) in the forefront when defensive shotguns are mentioned.

I can't recall an agency around here that used Winchester shotguns, even though they make decent guns. (The only oddballs from the pumps were my former agency and one the next city over, we used Benelli M1's.)

 

[SwampWolf]

This is not the usual "Ford vs Chevy" debate; this is a Chevy vs Cadillac question. Me, I'll go with the Cadillac every time, even though it might not offer the best gas mileage. If you have to wonder which of the two shotguns in question is the "Cadillac", well...

 

[eastbank]

well when you have to get your caddy fixed and need parts, it gets worse than bad gas mileage. when all the big shotgun makers made their shotguns with hand fitted parts it was a level playing field, the only shotgun maker that saw the light was Remington in 1950, when they brought out the 870 that allowed you to change barrels and all inside parts in the same gages with out a gunsmith. I have a 12 year old grandson that likes guns and he cleans them and he can tear my 870, 1100 and 1187,s and replace any part in them that I can also buy off the internet. this is not a downer on win model 12,s-ithaca,s ect, but I had to replace a fireing pin in one of my md 12,s and it was a pain compared to replaceing a fireing pin in a 870. a real biggy with the model 12,s is when the recoil resess in the receiver gets worn, it,s a weld job to build it up and when headspace get worn past the adjustments it,s pain to get a new one. with those problems with a 870 its just a barrel change as the breech block locks into the barrel. to me its that the 870,s are easier to keep running over the long haul. eastbank.

 

[SwampWolf]

well when you have to get your caddy fixed and need parts, it gets worse than bad gas mileage.

Well, at least you know which one is the Cadillac.

 

[milemaker13]

to me its that the 870,s are easier to keep running over the long haul. eastbank.

Does this apply to all 870s, even older wingmasters?

 

[eastbank]

yes it applies to all 870,s, even the 870 express that is sold at a price point that is low. most can be bought below 300.00 and even lower with the rebates Remington is offering. I have a 1950 rem 870 and todays parts will fit it. I often put a much newer vent ribbed barrel with choke tubes on it for hunting. at least you can sublet your broken down caddy for a cheap hotel. eastbank.

 

[MAKster]

I think this thread answered the OP's question but in a round about way. He asked what people thought of the current Winchester but everyone kept talking about the model 12 which hasn't been produced in over 50 years. That tells you all you need to know.

 

[maint1517]

I traded for a Sears and Roebuck 12ga pump several years ago. After a little research, I discovered it was actually made by winchester for sears and roebuck.
its a realy good shooting shotgun. But someone had the barrel cut back to 20 inches and the bead sight reinstalled professionally. Still holds a decent pattern though. Must have been one heck of a full choke!

 

[eastbank]

I have winchester a turkey special 1300 12ga 3" with a short barrel . I only use it for turkey hunting and is not fired more than ten or fifteen shots a year. I have shot maybe 200 shells run thru it with no problems so far and I have killed a pile of turkeys with it. eastbank.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Dad got a 1200 that been great !

 

[maint1517]

I had a winchester ranger 12ga pump, got it when I was 15. My ex wife did away with it and 2 rifles one day while i was gone.Thus, the EX part.
never could find where she sold or pawned them.

 

[Virginian]

The new Wingmasters are as good as any Remington has ever made; better if you like real checkering and a lifetime warranty. I like the style of the '63 to '79 guns, but I have to admit they aren't really better. The newer Expresses have a greatly improved finish as well. The internet wisdom on Remington shotgun issues is past tense, and exaggerated.
The current Winchester labelled SXP pumps are the fourth iteration of the design since the initial Model 1200. Hopefully they now have it right. If I preferred the feel of them and their ergonomics I would not be afraid to buy one. But, they are not any better or faster to cycle than any other pump - pure marketing hype. I believe the record was set with a Benelli, more due to the shooter than the gun in my opinion, but whatever.
Any manufacturer can turn out a gun with problems, and we're talking pump guns here, nor Purdeys. Browning, Mossberg, Remington, Benelli, Winchester, and Ithaca all make perfectly acceptable products, and lots of people worship at the throne of the cheapest possible lesser respected brands and seem happy as well.

 

[Sniper66]

When I decided to buy a dedicated turkey gun. I scoured the Tulsa Gun Show in search of the best pump 12 ga. I found and shouldered dozens of Benelli, Winchester Model 12, and Remington 870. There were many available. I was really looking for a Winchester model 12. The problem with them was the ones I liked were considerably more money. The variety is almost endless. I've looked at them for years, but never found one that triggered the 'buy now' response. Tried a few Benelli pumps that were all camoed up, but I found them to be ugly, yet quite functional. Then I ran onto an 870 Wingmaster, vent rib, 30" full choke that looked new. He asked $525 and I paid $470, cash and carry. Since then I have killed 3 turkeys with it and plan to shoot more in the spring. I love that shotgun.

 

[maint1517]

I traded for a Sears and Roebuck 12ga pump several years ago. After a little research, I discovered it was actually made by winchester for sears and roebuck.
its a realy good shooting shotgun. But someone had the barrel cut back to 20 inches and the bead sight reinstalled professionally. Still holds a decent pattern though. Must have been one heck of a full choke!

Ok, Ive been online researching all evening. Ends up , this sears and roebuck pump actually is a winchester model 1200. Made for sears with the sears and roebuck brand on the barrel.

 

[bannockburn]

My dedicated turkey gun is a 12 gauge Mossberg Model 9200, long out of print. Like eastbank's Winchester 1300 turkey special, not that many rounds through it through the course of a season but I did run 250 rounds through it when I first got it and nary a problem with any of the different loads I used that day. My upland game gun is a 20 gauge Winchester Model 1300 with a 22" vent rib barrel which has been perfect for me in that role, along with a plain 18" barrel for occasional home defense duty. Like the Mossberg, the Winchester has been very reliable over the years.