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Wisconsin Carry, Inc fast-tracking lawsuit against Madison Police Department

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by bnhcomputing, Sep 24, 2010.

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  1. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    She didn't even say she was upset. She said she'd be upset if something happened and she hadn't called in. Her call was a notification to the police of an unusual situation.

    There is no indication in either the Wisconsin Carry release or the Madison release that the restaurant pressed any charges of any sort. The customer made the call and the police arrived on the scene and approached the 5 after they had finished eating and exited the business without making a scene. No other customers or the business are reported to have called police with any concerns. The Madison release, an official release from the city, says the Chief made the decision to bring the charges of Disorderly Conduct. "Based upon the further investigation, Chief Noble Wray has concluded the appropriate charge for all 5 armed individuals is Disorderly Conduct (DC).".

    We should all try to stick to the facts as presented in the two pieces of information we have, the WC and Madison City releases.
     
  2. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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    Reasonable Suspicion

    Reasonable suspicion may have been that the presence of armed men in the reataurant caused a disturbance witness the 911 call reporting the incident. That was for the officers to assess. If they were wrong the brass or the Court will make that determination. I don't believe any of us want the police to be hancuffed in the performance of their duties. I would rather they erred on the side of caution.
     
  3. esquare

    esquare Member

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    Yes we do want them to be restrained - this is what a limited government is based on.

    Based upon this comment, I suggest that we start an email/letter writing campaign to the chief and the state's AG noting how abusive his use of the disorderly conduct charge is. Can anyone get contact information?
     
  4. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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    Derailment

    If I have derailed anything so have everyone else. I think the problem is you or others don't like to hear opposing positions.
     
  5. rattletrap1970

    rattletrap1970 Member

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    Disorderly conduct, a catch-all charge that the police use when they have nothing else on you.
    Reasonable suspicion is not when some guys carrying in public while take the time to order (and pay for) food then sit down to eat it and leave with no incident. Particularly when they were legally carrying open in public. Sorry, but this smacks of "It's ok if we infringe on your rights just a little to make the world a safer place". No. That isn't OK.
     
  6. Waywatcher

    Waywatcher Member

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    For anyone else that questions the open carriers while defending the Police;

    The kidnapping analogy is 100% solid. In this country we do not yet have to prove to the police that we are innocent.

    If they have probable cause to believe a crime is/was being commited it's different, but in this particular case there was no probable cause for them to ask for ID. Not to be harsh, but a scared and ignorant senior is not probable cause.

    It is different than a traffic stop. In a traffic stop, the reason you were pulled over is the probable cause, such as speeding, running a redlight, etc. That is why they ask for ID. I speculate that the majority of interaction between police and other people is often in the course of a traffic stop, and they are so used to being able to ask for ID that they do so on "auto-pilot." Just my thoughts.

    WI's Atty general recently made a press release stating the Open Carry in and of itself is not grounds for Disorderly Conduct.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  7. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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    Probable Cause.

    Probable cause is a higher standard than reasonable suspicion. As I read the WI requirements only reasonable suspicion is required to "stop and Identify". What ever turns out of this "law suit" the only ones to benefit will be the lawyers. No one has identified what the plaintifs want as a remedy. It seems they are suing before any court hearings or proceedings. If at trial they are found guilty where is your law suit?? If they are found not guilty can you afford the costs involved. Can WI Carry, Inc. afford to involve itself in every issue its members may get into. They should choose their battle grounds where the most benefit will be realized.
     
  8. highorder

    highorder Member

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    snubbies, with all due respect you should read and understand Terry v. Ohio before you add anything else or mention reasonable suspicion again.
     
  9. rattletrap1970

    rattletrap1970 Member

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    Oh, I see, so don't fight injustice because it is cost prohibitive, You'll have your rights a long time with that attitude.
     
  10. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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    WI Law

    968.24
    968.24 Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.
     
  11. esquare

    esquare Member

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    What crime could be suspected reasonably with the evidence that we have?
     
  12. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    Snubs,
    What is your point? The officer cannot demand to see identification (he can certainly ask, but the person is not obliged to provide it) A verbal reply from the one being questioned is sufficient to satisfy the law.

    I also don't think the officers' willful ignorance of the law is enough to reach the threshold of "reasonable" suspicion, but I don't know if that's been tested in court (yet.)
     
  13. highorder

    highorder Member

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    That is the question.

    Some would say that scaring people by being legally armed is disorderly conduct.
     
  14. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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  15. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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    WI Law

    ZXCVBOB

    Wisconsin law cited above give the officer the right to "demand" an individuals name and address
     
  16. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    ...but not the right to demand to see an ID card. I was going to look up the SC case of that guy in Nevada but you found it already.
     
  17. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    This has turned into a page and a half debate on the legal issues around the stop and citation of the WC group and not the action proposed in response to it.

    Open a thread in Legal if you want to discuss this aspect of the event and refocus on the action proposed (send money) in the WC release. I think we've established that there are two opinions on the legal issue, either the police were justified or not.
     
  18. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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    Donations

    The members have the right to know the chances of success in the law suit before they contribute to the WC fund. To blindly ask for funds is unconscienable. I have presented my opinion with some documentation and others have an opposite opinion. With this information in hand the members can make an informed opinion and be guided accordingly. I have no dog in this fight since Illinois is what it is.
     
  19. inherentical

    inherentical Member

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    Joined and donated. Thanks for the links!
     
  20. jackpinesavages

    jackpinesavages member

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    Snubbies: Terry v. Ohio IS pertinent, as there was no CRIME or suspicion thereof, so the Terry Stop was illegal. It's a good lawsuit for WC and for us to contribute to if you can.

    Attorney General Van Hollen has openly supported "open carry" as being legal in WI. Get your legal papers straight before getting undies in a bundle: I believe it is perfectly legal to OPEN CARRY in ILLINOIS just as easily and legally. It is just as legal to eat in that restaurant as it is to open carry in that establishment, without alcohol being served or Culvers posting signage per " No Firearms". Simply eating there, even w/o open carry, does NOT mean anyone can demand to see your ID to verify IF you are a felon or not.

    Word needs to get out as I live just 35 miles south of there and this is first I've heard of it! GO WC!!
     
  21. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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    To Each His Own

    I prefer Hibel and WI State Law. You do as you please. Try not to get so upset bad for your heart. I invite you and your carry to Chicago to test your theory.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2010
  22. snubbies

    snubbies Member

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  23. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    No, it clearly says this.
    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/default.html#

    Their page is a bit cluttered, but the Madison 5 "DONATE" button is just to the right of center.
     
  24. jackpinesavages

    jackpinesavages member

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    No, it is not to each his own, as I am a certified LEO in WI and I know these laws inside and out. I understand why the Madison PD is using the DC as their charge-as stated earlier it is the "last resort" charge; you can't tie up 8 cops for an hour and come away empty handed, with nothing but their false pride. However, it is the wrong charge and has become a political statement for the PD Chief to make to A.G. JB Van Hollen right there in Madison. These 5 people will NOT get tied up in a stand-off between the Police Chief and the State's Attorney General, with me standing by doing nothing. That's darn near the definition of tyranny.

    Turning this into a personal affront in telling me to not get upset is the wrong direction to go for a reasonable person. We still live in these great United States under the protective cover of the Constitution where healthy debate makes the precedant for setting standards of the REST of the World.

    Here I shall make a clear point about your references, Snubbies, I am not making an affront to you personally: The wikipedia/Hibel which you prefer to stand on for your decision is not allowed to be used in basic College courses as a reference. Anyone can log into the area and make manipulations/annotations/misdirections without consequences for the actual laws and/or truth. Also, WI law on this matter is based on Terry vs. Ohio, as it is all across the land per what is commonly called a "Terry Stop". It is a Landmark case from Ohio, about 1964 IIRC, and it does not apply here for this particular case as there was no reasonable suspicion for a past/present/future crime. The Police Dept. presence actually CAUSED the situation which came forth on a peaceful and legal assembly.

    Join and donate as this MAY become another landmark case. You have an opportunity to be a part of history in the making for our rights as legal gun owners. Exciting!!
     
  25. paramedic70002

    paramedic70002 Member

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    No offense jackpinesavages but that sounds like a 'contempt of cop' charge.

    OCing and not playing LEO games works well in many other states, like my beloved Virginia. It took a little while and a few payouts but eventually the LEOs 'got it' and problems now are rare.

    Regarding the 'what if they are felons' argument, then the LEO would be basing reasonable suspicion on the belief that anyone carrying a gun is a felon. That will not hold up in any court.
     
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