Wolf Attack (Pics not Suitable for Some)

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sierrabravo45

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Here is the link to the story:

http://www.idahopress.com/articles/2006/06/08/news/news3.txt


GRANGEVILLE Hello. My name is Scott Richards. I have lived in Grangeville for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting dogs for the past 34 years.

To do this it takes a great deal of love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care of them. When I choose a new pup, he or she spends the first 6 months in my house. He or she is loved and a bond is there forever.

I do not believe there are bad dogs, just inexperienced owners. I have spent the last four years trying to introduce this sport to as many young people as I can. My photo albums are full of pictures with children sitting under a tree with the dogs, telling them they did a good job.

That has all changed now.

The reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going to debate anyone about how many wolves are really in the state of Idaho. I will say our elk, moose and deer populations are in serious trouble now.

The real reason I am telling this story is that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me Wednesday, May 24, at 9:45 a.m. might open a few eyes.

Its been a few days now, and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger, and now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or visits our state. My life that I have loved raising and training these special working dogs is now over.

Crying wolf

This Wednesday morning started like most days when I train dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on the Service Flats Road. I let my dogs out of the box, jumped into my truck and followed them up the road for a mile, letting them clean out. I had eight dogs with me, and seven of them were very experienced 2, 3 and 4-year-olds. I had one five-month-old pup.

I loaded four dogs on top of the box and four inside the box. I did not have to drive far, and the dogs sounded off, letting me know a bear had crossed the road.

My friend, Bryon, had driven up from Lewiston to train some of his young dogs.

I turned out a 4-year-old named Jasper. He left the road and let me know the track was fresh. I told Bryon to turn his dogs loose as did I. They quickly dropped into a canyon, where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in daylight hours.

When all the dogs reached the bottom, five went up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later.

The other group of dogs treed about the same time about 1 1/2 miles away. Bryon and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree, we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few pictures and were back in the trucks ready to go to the other dogs.

We drove back up to where we heard the group of five dogs top over and shortly thereafter tree the bear. We checked where the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could and stopped and listened.

They were about 400 yards away, treeing solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs. When Bryon and I crested the hill, instead of hearing a roar of barking dogs treeing, we heard nothing. We were looking at each other like, Where did they go? We just heard them there five minutes ago.

One dog barked, and another barked just 50 yards away. I said to Bryon that neither of the dogs we heard sounded like any of our dogs. He agreed. Then I heard a dog bark that I knew was mine, but at the end of his bark there was a sharp yelp. Bryon and I headed down the hill in a hurry about 75 yards apart.

About 300 yards down the hill I was stopped dead in my tracks by a big dark-colored wolf. Blackey, my dog, was getting attacked; I was 20 yards away now and closing fast, screaming and yelling as I ran. I stopped at about 12 feet from the wolf, and even though I was screaming and waving my arms, the wolf did not break from the attack. Every time Blackey tried to run, the wolf would sink his teeth into Blackeys hindquarters.

All the while I was screaming louder than I ever screamed in my life. Without any thought I picked up a 4-foot stick, stepped toward the wolf, swung and hit a tree. When the branch went crack and the tree went thud, the wolf instantly lunged at me.

I remember thinking I was going to die.

I ran from tree to tree straight up hill toward my truck. When that wolf lunged at me, I believed I would have been seriously hurt or dead if not for Blackey. I did not see what took place, but what I heard was my dog giving his life to save me.

As I reached the truck, Bryon was digging around in his truck for a gun. As I ran up he started yelling, We got wolves. I was trying to listen to him as I was searching for a gun as I took my pistol in my hand and turned toward Bryon.

When I looked into his eyes I realized I was not the only one threatened by wolves. We headed back down to see if we could save Blackey, Lady or Halley, but there was no sound. I wanted to hear a bell dingle or a bark, but nothing. As Bryon and I hurried back to the truck to get my tracking box, I finally understood that Bryon was able to fight off three wolves and save two dogs. Snyper and Bullet were safe in the dog box with no life-threatening injuries.

With the tracking box in hand, I tuned in on Ladys tracking collar and said to Bryon, Not Lady, not Lady, but I knew she was dead. Then I tuned to Blackey and told Bryon that Blackey was dead, and then I tuned in Halleys collar. One beep every four seconds that means all three dogs had not moved for at least five minutes. All dead.

I was just standing there in shock.

We decided to look for Halley first. We were getting real close; the receiver was pegging the needle. I knew that with a few more steps I would be looking at one of my babies.

My heart skipped a beat when Halleys tree switch went off. I didnt know if she was alive or if a wolf was dragging her off. We ran the direction the needle was pointing, and in a few yards there she was.

She was trying to get up; her stomach was ripped open and her guts were hanging out a foot. She had more than 60 bite marks and deep gashes all over her body. Her stomach was torn in multiple spots.

Bryon went into action. Of came his shirt, and we wrapped it tightly around her stomach. I carried her back to Bryons truck and put her in the front seat; Brian headed for the vets. I remember thinking I wouldnt see Halley alive again.

I started tracking Blackey next; it did not take long to find him. He wasnt far from where the wolf came after me. He was dead and lying in a pool of his own blood. He was bit and torn so full of holes that I just fell to the ground bawling and crying. I could not quit thinking, He gave his life to save me.

I was sitting there when it hit me: Lady! Id better get to Lady. When I tuned her in, I knew she was within a 100 yards. I lined up with her collar, and the next thing I knew there she was in a heap, her eyes wide open, looking straight into my eyes. For one second I thought she might be alive. When I knelt down beside her, I knew she was dead.

Its very difficult to describe the type of death these dogs were handed. It was easy to see that the wolves want to cripple their prey, torture it and then kill it. I have never seen a worse way for any animal or person to die.

I made it back to town and took care of my dogs who made it through this nightmare that happened in the light of day. Then I headed to see if Halley needed to be buried.

When I walked into the veterinarians office, I was greeted with, Did you find the rest of your dogs? I tried to say they were all dead, but I could not get the words out; all I could do was cry.

After a few minutes standing alone, I heard a voice behind me say, Halley is still alive; do you want to see her? I instantly headed for the back room, and when I turned the corner I saw this little black ball covered in stitches swollen twice her normal size.

I stopped and said out loud, Oh my God, Halley, what have they done to you? When she heard me say her name, she lifted her head, whined and waged her tail. I kneeled down, held her and comforted her the whole time wondering if she was the lucky one, or were Blackey and Lady the lucky ones? When I looked into her eyes it was easy to see the only reason she was still alive: the wolf had choked her out.

Her eyes were full of blood; they had left her for dead. The doctor said it was a miracle she was alive at all. Her lungs were badly damaged, but what most concerned us all was infection from all the tears and bites.

I knew this little dog had more heart and desire than a 1,200-pound grizzly bear, and yet was as gentle with my granddaughters as my chocolate lab. If it were just a fight with infection, she would win.

On the way home I called the Idaho Fish and Game to report what had happened. They were very understanding, and I could tell they were sincere when they said they were sorry for my loss. They also made it clear there was nothing they could do for me and that their hands were tied. They said they would write the report and call a federal agent.

Justin, the government trapper, contacted me by phone and arranged to meet me at first light. We were at the site of the attack early the next morning. We went to the site where I had laid Lady in the shade.

She was gone without a trace.

I took Justin to where Blackey was laying, and he had also disappeared. We searched around and found nothing. About that time a crow down below me called three times, so we walked toward the sound.

It did not take long before we were standing over the remains of the dog that saved me from harm. All that was left of him was his head and backbone. Had we been an hour later, there would have been nothing left of him.

We had spooked the wolves off while they were finishing their prey. In five hours all we found of Lady was a pile of fresh wolf scat full of white, brown and black dog hair. Lady was a tri-colored walker that color.

Justin and I buried what was left of Blackey. We piled heavy stones on his grave, and I walked away thinking that it could have been me. I could have been just a pile of wolf scat lying on the ground and leaving people to wonder where I had disappeared to.

I couldnt help but think of the 22-year-old man who was killed and eaten by wolves in Canada this winter. Theres been a slaughter on hound dogs and pets in Idaho, and it is getting worse daily. I have been assured that if these wolves kill any cows, sheep, goats, pigs or horses, they will become a problem and will be dealt with, and the owners will be compensated.

Thats a relief.

Dogs have no value to anyone in the government, it seems.

So what I love to do is over; I will not send another dog to slaughter or feed another starving wolf pack. My concerns now are that the wolves are running out of easy prey and are now eating dogs.

In wet, muddy areas where elk and moose have always been plentiful, I no longer can find even a track.

Perhaps aliens took them off to a safer planet. I hope you did not find that funny.

This is the first documented case in Idaho where wolves have eaten a dog after killing it. The real reason I had to write this story is public safety.

The general public is unaware of the danger that awaits them. Since I retired, I have spent no less than four days a week in the mountains. What has amazed me are how many of these wolves are right around peoples homes. When they are out of easy prey, be ready.

For as long as I can remember, when you were in the mountains for any reason, a dog by your side was a great defense to warn you of predators. I used to believe in this. But now a dog is nothing more than bait to lure wolves.

Recently, while cougar hunting, an associate of mine, who is a licensed guide like myself, had a wolf encounter. He was cougar hunting with a dog on a leash when three wolves charged up on him. With waving arms and a screaming voice, he was able to persuade them to leave, but what if they had been a little hungrier? Your natural instinct will be to defend your companion. I am not saying you should leave your friend at home, but be prepared.

Put a bell or a beeper on him or her so you know where they are at all times.

The most important thing, in my opinion, is to pack a firearm. I personally believe pepper spray will not work in a pack attack. Keep your dogs quiet when you are walking no barking. If they are tied up in camp, no barking. And dont let your children play with your pets and have them barking while theyre playing.

My personal belief is that the war has been lost. Its too late to save our big-game herds in my lifetime.

What I have loved to do for most of my life is over, so enjoy it while you still can. Be prepared. I pray you never encounter a pack of Canadian gray wolves.

What do you think?

Whats your reactions to the reintroduction efforts of wolves into Idaho and the western states?

Send your letters to:

Idaho Press-Tribune

P.O. Box 9399

Nampa, ID 83652
 
You know how it is. You train a predator to help you hunt and then you cry when another predator comes along and hunts your predators.

If he is so concerned about his dogs, maybe he should keep them in sight better than just letting them loose to roam and chase. Just because bears may turn tail does not mean he has been sufficient as a dog trainer in letting them roam on their own.

Wolves eat. Scott trains his dogs to chase other animals, such as bears, tree them, remain on station until he arrives, barking the entire time. Translation to other predators such as wolves, "We are a bunch of stupid citified dogs with no gun toting master around and we have treed a bear and will keep yelling until our master comes and hope that in the meantime that we aren't calling out to other predators that the dinner bell has rung and that they won't attracted to our sounds that give the impression we are a bunch of weak, wounded animals as no predators in the wild waste time and energy screaming at the top of their lungs like we do because they don't want to be eaten either."

I am sorry for his loss, but there are inherent risks in letting your hunting dogs run wild, knowing you have taught them to NOT be aggressive to kill game, helping make them tender vittles for real predators like wolves.
 
Are wolves protected? Is that the problem? They are decimating the wild game herds because the (idiot) feds say you can't shoot them?

If that's the case, then it's time to repeal that idiotic law. In fact, it's time to repeal environmentalism.

Gators are eating Floridians. But Floridians can't defend themselves cause of the idiot lawmakers.

Mountain lions are eating Californians. But Californians can't eliminate the problem because Sacramento is more concerned about the enviroNazis than human life.

And in Idaho, the wolves which, IIRC, were reintroduced into that area by the feds, are tearing everything up.

maybe he should keep them in sight better than just letting them loose to roam and chase

The article points out that the wolves feel comfortable in urban settings.

What has amazed me are how many of these wolves are right around peoples homes.

Since the wolves are coming onto residential property, it's unreasonable to require the homeowners to lock up their dogs/animals.

Again, if the article is bemoaning the protected status of wolves, then I think he's right. Wolves weren't almost eliminated for nothing, you know.
 
?? treeing bears without a firearm? Were they hunting or not?

Wolves kill and (sometimes) eat dogs because they are the same animal in the same habitat (and to the wolf) vying for the same resources. Wolves from rival packs kill each other too.

Sorry to read about this guy's dogs but assigning anthropomorphic adjectives like 'cruel' and this statement: "wolves want to cripple their prey, torture it and then kill it." Guess what, when your house cat is teaching its young to hunt it will maim a prey animal to let its young finish it off.

Humans tend to forget that while we are at the top of the food chain most days, we are not unconnected from it.
 
This guy shares the same feelings about the wolfs a good chunk of us from Idaho have.

I have no use for wolfs, especially a non-native variety. My great-great garndfather wiped out the wolfs that were here for a reason. I was and am still opposed to the reintroduction. I can't remember where the paper is located, but a wildlife student from BSU put out a paper a few years back comparing the historical records of the native wolfs to those of the Canadian wolfs.

The dogs that used live in our area were closer to that of the southern US/northern Mexico wolf. 50 pounds lighter and much less agressive.

For me, it is S,S, and SU.
 
Sorry man

I train dogs for a living. LE dogs mostly. Just to have too put an old one that is sick down. Is crushing for me.

To lose them this way is brutal. I Just lost a 14 year sch.111 dog I started my career with.

I understand. I think mabe you should look into a dog that will protect your hounds until you can get to them.

Like a big fila from Brazil. I can help if want.

stay frosty. And vote to get seasonon these things. www.cooperhaus.com. Thats me in trainining with max. I am the bald one.
 
First observation: I hear the term "decimating game" quite a bit, but that was part of the rational for re-introducing predators in to their original habitat. Overpopulation by game species, resulting in large die-off due to drought/disease. Or is starvatiuon/chronic wasting disease better than feeding woves?. I have not seen any stats to back up this so called devistation. There are domestic animals killed, and most of these are compensated.

Obs. #2: Ammusing oneself by harasing game (bears) is not much of a sport.

Obs #3: When you are in the woods/predator habitat, use your head, keep dogs/kids on a short leash and pack a gun. I would no more send my dogs out in the woods unsupervised than I would send my 6 year old son.
 
They quickly dropped into a canyon, where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in daylight hours

OK, you set some newbie hunds out into a known bear area, hoping to train them to tree bears. But where was his rifle? Something about this story seems very odd. He's expecting train inexperienced dogs to deal with a lethal predator but he runs out to the alarmed barking with no iron at all. He has to supposedly go back and get his firearm which is buried in the truck after seeing wolves (supposedly) eating his dogs, and then all he has is a pistol. A pistol for bear hunting, not a hunting revolver or rifle?? He's either a complete idiot or he's BS'ing in order to explain why there's no wolf body with dog meat in its belly.

One dog barked, and another barked just 50 yards away. I said to Bryon that neither of the dogs we heard sounded like any of our dogs.

WOLVES DO NOT BARK, at least not like a dog does. A wolf "bark" does not sound like a stranger's dog.

Do I doubt that wolves or large coyotes would challenge domestic dogs and eat them? No, not at all. Coyotes get a lot of dogs and cats every year. But wild wolves are deeply wary of men, and in this case they supposedly showed no fear at all. We have many thousands of them up here, and while we get plenty of bear attacks and charges, WOLF attacks on man, or even close range sightings, are extremely rare. The only known bite came from a wolf in SE some idiots had been feeding. They don't like being near people, and if they do attack dogs or livestock you'll rarely see it happen.

Basically, if these animals were barking and showing no sign of fear, I suggest they were large feral dogs. Either that or we have another "KILLER BEAR" story spun off of some internet photos. I suppose it's possible this fellow just happened to let his dogs loose right smack in the middle of a pack, but if he did it's his fault.

I guess up here we don't view the woods as a sort of parkland, like the people from Idaho apparently do. There are many things out there that can and will kill you and your dogs. Personally I prefer it that way. A wilderness with no teeth isn't a wilderness. And I think our grandfathers made a huge mistake civilizing the US. I don't want this country to become a clone of Europe. I want it to remain lethal, so we never forget that life is walking on a razor's edge. People who grow up removed from the great predators are prone to either think they're big cuddly bears like Treadwell and his followers or demonize them into incarnations of evil. In truth they are neither. They are what they are. Once you understand that, and learn to respect it, I think you learn a lot more about the world itself.

But if the folks in Id don't want wilderness, then so be it. I think we should reintroduce brown bear and wolves into California first, as the need for a dose of reality there is greatest.
 
:uhoh: You guys are harsh! I dont walk around the silicon valley hills with nothing. And all we have is coyotes and the rare big cat.

But I dont think this dude beheaded his own dog, but who knows.
 
The following passage is from author John Murray’s book The Great Bear: Those who have packed far into grizzly country…know that the presence of even one grizzly on the land elevates the mountains, deepens the canyons, chills the wind, brightens the stars, darkens the forests, and quickens the pulse of all who enter it.

Cosmoline, there is no reason to insult me by categorizing all Idahoans as thinking and acting like the guy who wrote that article for a newspaper. Personally, I was all for wolf reintroduction in Idaho, just like I was for grizzly reintroduction in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. Though I felt Gale Norton and Chris Servheen’s idea that the reintroduction of grizzlies in the Selway-Bitterroot region would somehow provide a link for the grizzlies in the Yellowstone Ecosystem to the grizzlies in the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho was ludicrous. It doesn’t make any difference now. Idaho’s ex-governor Dirk Kempthorn, the same one who filed suit against the Clinton Administration over the grizzly bear question has now replaced Gale Norton as Secretary of Interior. The plans for grizzly reintroduction in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness have been shelved and I doubt it will be brought up again in my lifetime.
Getting back to wolves, like I said, I was all for their reintroduction. Another Idahoan participating in this thread said his great-grandfather helped in wiping out the wolves in Idaho for a reason. Well so did mine, as did my grandfather. My grandfather’s reason was a bounty. I’m sure those gold miners that left that huge mess up on the Yankee Fork of Idaho’s Salmon River had even bigger reasons. I’ve seen very little of Alaska, but I’m sure you know of animals or places there that have been severely harmed by the intrusion of human beings.
I fear I’m starting to sound like an environmentalist, animal-rights wacko. I’m not. I’m only environmentalist enough to know that there aren’t any more wildernesses being created so we have to take care of what we have left. I love to hunt and if there’s getting to be too many wolves to be healthy for our big game herds I’m in favor of opening a season on them.
However, I don’t put much stock in what that guy who wrote that article for the newspaper said. I mean after all – here’s a guy who approaches a treed bear without a gun and whines “Dogs have no value to anyone in the government, it seems.” Who does he think puts money in the “government’s” pocket? Does he expect me to pay because he chooses to let his dogs chase bears in an area where there is known to be wolves? You know, I had a beautiful Chesapeake Bay Retriever a few years back. He got ran over by a train. Compensation never even occurred to me – my dog was on railroad property. Yeah, it hurt. But it was my fault! I’m not sure about the elk and moose in the Grangeville area of Idaho (where the guy who wrote the article lives) but in other parts of the state, elk and moose are doing great. We are actually allowed 2 moose permits (1 bull and 1 cow) in a lifetime now. Before a couple of years ago it had been only 1 moose permit in a persons lifetime. Idaho’s mule deer herd still isn’t all that healthy due to a large winter die-offs back in the early 90s, but that had nothing to do with wolves. I don’t doubt that wolves are capable of “decimating” big game herds, I just wouldn’t take that guys word for what’s happening. And as far as compensating farmers and ranchers for their loss of livestock, if I were running the show those farmers and ranchers would be paying a lot higher fees for grazing their cattle on public land – land that belonged to wild animals in the first place.
 
Cosmoline said:
I think we should reintroduce brown bear and wolves into California first, as the need for a dose of reality there is greatest.

Don't people ever get tired of bashing California?

Sharps Shooter said:
if I were running the show those farmers and ranchers would be paying a lot higher fees for grazing their cattle on public land – land that belonged to wild animals in the first place.

Humans are wild animals, too.

Does he expect me to pay because he chooses to let his dogs chase bears in an area where there is known to be wolves?

If he's been doing it for 34 years, the government is the one who ruined it by introducing Canadian wolves onto public land.

Stormin n said:
Obs. #2: Ammusing oneself by harasing game (bears) is not much of a sport.

First, he says he was training dogs, not merely harassing bears for idle amusement, and two, you are not the ultimate authority on what is sporting and what is not.
 
Sharps Shooter, when you lease private lands, the owner provides the fencing (if needed), barns, corrals, loading chutes and water supply points.

When leasing federal lands, the leaseholder provides all these necessary items. That's why federal land lease values are low. The overhead is higher.

Art
 
Man goes bear hunting with bear rifle.

Dogs or no, doesn't seem like he was prepared. It also sounds like he knew wolves were becoming a danger *before* he was in the situation.

Sympathize with the guy's loss, but seems like he put himself in a situation for it.

jmm
 
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I found this story kind of strange, also. I've run bear with dogs. Larger bears don't always tree. Sometimes they'll bay up and swat the hell out of the dogs. I've seen dogs torn up badly. It can get pretty exciting.
The guys I know that run bear dogs are just as hard on their dogs as they are on the bears. Maybe they do things differently in Idaho, but I kind of doubt it. If some wolves did jump on my neighbor's pack of plott hounds, I bet it would be a shot up pack of wolves. Something just doesn't ring true about this story. I don't think that seeing a couple of his dogs messed up would put a real bear hunter off running dogs but maybe the bear hunters in Idaho are more sensitive or something.

I feel sorry about him losing his dogs, but bear hunting is a dangerous sport, for the dogs anyway. Maybe he should train them to chase frisbees or something. I've got a couple of labs I love. They're part of the family. I don't chase bears with them, though.

The only wolves we have around here are the red wolves that they have been trying to reintroduce. I have a friend in Creswell that shot one in his chicken pen. I guess wolves will act like wolves.
 
HEY GUYS!!! HAVE ANY OF YOU ARMCHAIR EXPERTS EVER HEARD OF PURSUIT SEASON????:banghead: :mad: :cuss:

Apparently NOT!

That is a season, usually in the spring that is set aside for the pursuit only of bears with dogs for the purpose of training bear dogs. The bear is not killed but only treed and then let loose. In case some of you guys didn’t know it hound hunting is one of the only forms of catch and release hunting on the planet. The hounds men is NOT allowed to carry a firearm during pursuit only season although many do for obvious reasons but they risk a fine by doing so. The hounds men will use older dogs mixed in with younger dogs. The older dogs do much of the training of the younger dogs once a scent is hit.

Doublenaught writes,
If he is so concerned about his dogs, maybe he should keep them in sight better than just letting them loose to roam and chase. Just because bears may turn tail does not mean he has been sufficient as a dog trainer in letting them roam on their own.

Dear Mr spy,

This may be one of the ALL time most ignorant statements ever written on this or ANY hunting forum in existence. You sir have OBVIOUSLY never hunted bear or cat behind hounds. And while that doesn't stop you from posting like you do have some knowledge if you had even the slightest idea of what you were talking about you'd realize just how ridiculous that statement was. Hounds do not stay in sight of the hunter after "striking" a solid scent. Once a solid scent is hit the dogs take off in pursuit and you may not see them again for many many hours.

Which brings us into point of fact number two.

Since there is no possible way of keeping pace with a pack of hot trailing hounds they have been bred to bark and bay loudly so that the hunter can locate them during the pursuit and after they tree an animal DUHHHH!!!!!:mad:

Which pretty much covers this little jewel that was also written by Doublenaught,

Wolves eat. Scott trains his dogs to chase other animals, such as bears, tree them, remain on station until he arrives, barking the entire time. Translation to other predators such as wolves, "We are a bunch of stupid citified dogs with no gun toting master around and we have treed a bear and will keep yelling until our master comes and hope that in the meantime that we aren't calling out to other predators that the dinner bell has rung and that they won't attracted to our sounds that give the impression we are a bunch of weak, wounded animals as no predators in the wild waste time and energy screaming at the top of their lungs like we do because they don't want to be eaten either."

Sir right here and right now you tell me what animal on this planet predator or not besides a pack of wolves will be attracted to a pack of baying hounds!

Double I have to ask you this public forum if you are a hunter , if you have ever hunted, and what are your true motifs in regards to posting on this forum? Some of the statements you’ve made in the past have got me thinking that there is something a little more sinister than just a name in regards to your handle. Are you or are you not an anti hunter. Because you sure as heck sound like one most of the time.


People who have drank the cool aid on these wolf reintroduction programs fail to see the big picture. This is the most effective anti hunting program ever devised and will effectively wipeout big game hunting in many areas of the United States

Wolves have been knocking the heck out of hunting dogs in many other areas too. This is nothing new. It doesn’t bother me that wolves have been reintroduced into several areas. Yellowstone being one of them. What does bother me is that the local citizens had no say in the process. That affected states do not have any oversight or management tools to control wolf populations. That these wolves remain federally protected once they leave their intended reintroduction areas. That people are not allowed to defend themselves or their property from wolves and are criminalized if they do. That the federal government has maintained draconian rules with regards to wolves and are generally acting like a bunch of oppressive leftist animal rights nazis in regards to the whole wolf program.

Some of you guys sound like a bunch of fuzzy legged tree huggers wearing stop the killing tee shirts standing in line to get into the re-elect bilHillary meeting!

I can't even believe some of the CRAP I'm reading here!

Cosmoline,

I agree with your premise about wild country and teeth. However having lived in AK for awhile I seem to remember many of the same arguments about wolves and I still hear them today in regards to big game population and in particular these arguments when Ak stopped aerial shooting of wolves.

Most pointedly Alaskans would FREAK out if the federal government decided to, without the approval of Alaskans reintroduce some animal into the state than declare it to be the holy grail of all animals which can never be managed by the human hand and not allow the state of AK to have any say in its management. And of course there is a hunting season on wolves in AK. That is all that Idaho residents are asking for at this point. A way to manage the burgeoning wolf population.
 
Don't people ever get tired of bashing California?

My people have been doing it since the 19th century. It's really not something one ever grows tired of :neener:

Most pointedly Alaskans would FREAK out if the federal government decided to, without the approval of Alaskans reintroduce some animal into the state than declare it to be the holy grail of all animals which can never be managed by the human hand and not allow the state of AK to have any say in its management. And of course there is a hunting season on wolves in AK. That is all that Idaho residents are asking for at this point. A way to manage the burgeoning wolf population.

I know all about the current wolf controversy up here. I'm also willing to bet the decrease in their ranks in the afflicted GMU's will not increase moose populations. Bear get a lot more moose than people realize, as well as subsistence poachers.

As far as reintroduction, I sympathize with the frustration with the federales and their restrictions. But if the state's response would simply be to destroy all the wolves again what other choice is there? If Alaska started trying to destroy every last wolf in the state, I'd agree it was time for the feds to stop it with the ESA.

Is a new hunting season all they're asking for? It seems to me they want to drive them out again. At least that's the tone I picked up from the article.
 
H&Hhunter, no I sure didn’t know that about the spring “pursuit only” bear hunts where the pursuers, or dog trainers, or whatever you call them are not legally allowed to carry guns. I’ve hunted bears during the spring season, though never behind hounds. I’ve never hunted anything behind hounds for that matter. Not that I’m against it – I’ve just never had the opportunity.
I believe you’re absolutely correct in your assessment that the main thing Idahoans were upset about with the “reintroduction” of wolves in Idaho is the fact that we had no say-so in the matter. And we continue to have no say in their management. Even though I personally was thrilled the first time I heard a wolf howl when my wife and I were backpacking up near Challis a few years ago, the fact remains Canadian wolves were forced upon us Idahoans by Bill Clinton and gang. Even the word “reintroduction” implies that Canadian wolves were here in the first place, which is of course absurd. It was an introduction, pure and simple.
I also made a misstatement in my original post about the so-called “reintroduction” of grizzlies into the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness of Idaho and Montana. I wrote that it was Chris Servheen and Gale Norton’s plan. Bruce Babbitt was Secretary of Interior under Clinton, and Gale Norton had the plan shelved when she took over as Secretary of Interior under Bush. Idaho’s former governor Dirk Kempthorn, who has now replaced Gale Norton, actually did file a suit against the Clinton administration over the grizzly bear question though.
 
Even without the no-gun "Pursuit season": People have been hunting with dogs for centuries. Heck, didn't you guys ever read McKinlay Kantor's "The Voice of Bugle Ann" in school? One of the finest short stories ever written. And read Robert Ruark's "The Old Man and the Boy" and "The Old Man's Boy Grows Older".

Aside from hunt-and-kill, there is the music of listening to the dogs. For many, it's music more beautiful than any philharmonic symphony orchestra.

Any dog has to be trained, no matter the purpose. Training to hunt is no different a chore than house-breaking. Dogs aren't born knowing to not chase in and attack a bear or lion, just as they're not born knowing you don't want them to piddle on the carpet. They must be trained to stop and bark/bay at cornered critters. Slow learners can die--even when chousing feral hogs.

Wolves are not stupid. If they're not themselves "attacked" by people, they quickly lose all fear of people. No different from the behavior of cougars in sacrosanct areas such as national parks or California. A predator without fear is indeed dangerous to whatever they think is edible.

I've only seen one wolf, and he was stuffed and mounted in the window of a gunstore in Detroit. This was in 1963. His forelegs were about the same diameter as my forearms. Overall, I'd bet that alive and on the paw, he must have weighed around 140 pounds or so. Dunno; maybe more. Any way you hack it, he was for sure a serious critter.

I'm part of nature. I've felt that way for over sixty years, and I've yet to hear a convincing argument from Ingrid Newkirk or Wayne Purcelle to make me think otherwise. I get a serious case of the chapped whatzit at the (bleeping) idea that any animal has more man-given rights than I do when it comes to survival. (IMO, animals don't have rights. People have responsibilities toward them. Dogs, cows, birds, wolves...)

Rant mode off. For a moment.

Art
 
i am a dog owner, althogh i have never lost a dog especially in that maner, and i can understand your pain. the thought of losing my dog is something i dont even think about. your story has reminded me of why i carry whenever i take my dog in the woods. i live in a city, but do have a hunting cabin that we frequent. everytime i go in the woods i will think of your story, so know your dogs did not go in vein. my condolences to you.
 
First it will be someone's dogs. Then someone's child. And no one will care.

Then a Senator's child will be killed by wolves, and suddenly real action will be taken.

I'd sooner be judged by 12 than eaten by them.:fire:
 
H & H,

Thanks for your post. I have been silently banging my head over this thread for two days. I simply didn't know where to start. I've never seen such an anti-hunting crowd of gun owners in my entire life. I love this place, but threads like this make my blood boil.

Nice job in breaking down the idiocy into digestible, confrontable bits. Threads like this just boggle the mind and give me little hope for the future of hunting if this is how a bunch of gun owners respond to the idea of hunting with hounds. What's next, bird dogs? I know I know...I've already gotten the nasty emails, like when my last book came out.

:banghead:
 
Who's anti-hunting? I'm against sending your novice dogs out into the woods to search for bear then acting surprised and having to scout around for a *pistol* when the dogs actually find something out there that fights back. Whether it was a bear, feral dogs or Canadian wolves that killed the dogs, any fault or responsibility is with the owner alone. What kind of nut tries to hunt BEAR without any iron in his hand? Moreover, if he's not actually hunting bear, the decision sending dogs out to chase them out of season for "training" is harassment of wildlife. At least it is up here. The "pursuit season" sounds like an extremely stupid idea. If the fellow really can't carry a firearm while his dogs chase down a black bear, which happens to be one of the only animals in North America which ACTUALLY HUNTS HUMANS, then the law is patently insane and he should either break it or not participate. If the law actually does forbid carrying arms, then the problem is not with the federales but with the boneheads at Idaho F&G who drafted that reg. I don't even HIKE in bear country without iron, let alone hunt the buggers. And it isn't the brown ones that keep darting out in front of me and eyeing me up, its cute little blackie.

The fellow got used to treating the woods as his own park. Well he got nailed. Whether it's feral dogs or wolves or a sudden snow storm or getting lost or whatever, that's what happens when you let you get too casual.
 
Cosmoline, I imagine this guy, like most folks, acted upon past experience. If you've been training your dogs in this manner for some years, you have certain expectations as to bear behavior. If the regulations say, "No guns," then you're stuck. And, per the story, it wasn't the bear that caused the problem, anyway.

In all my decades of reading hunting magazines, stories about black-bear attacks have NEVER involved men (plural) and dogs as targets for a hungry bear. A solo person or a person(s) in a tent in camp, or some such thing, yeah. And, of course, the proverbial "got between a mother bear and her cubs". But that's irrelevant to this deal.

The problem here was unexpected wolf location, and unexpected wolf behavior. Aside from livestock depredations, this sort of attack--or potential for attack--was why the wolves were hunted out in the first place.

My summary take on all this deal is that an honest man was trying to obey the law and work within the system when pursuing an activity that is both historical and legal. "The System"--as represented by the Sierra Club types and the USF&WS--put the shaft to him. Pardon my cynicism, but "As usual" is my add-on. Which leads me to Heinlein's "Government does not exist for the benefit of the governed."

Art
 
Wouldn't you agree that if Idaho F&G really forbids carrying iron in the field, IT is also to blame for this situation? Wolves or no, I find such a rule outrageous, not to mention a violation of the RKBA. Assuming you're safe around predators because you've always been able to get away with harassing them and never needed a rifle is really no different from Treadwell's assumption that the brownies wouldn't eat him because they hadn't yet.
 
I have a copy of the 2006 Idaho Big Game Regulations sitting in front of me. I also searched the Idaho F&G website for the rules about the so called "dog training season" for black bears, and for the life of me I can't see where carrying a firearm while pursuing bears with hounds is illegal. The regulations DO read: "During a dog training season, black bear may be pursued and treed, but may not be captured, killed, or possessed."
I have to go along with Cosmoline - I think a rule forbidding the carrying of firearms in the field by the Idaho F&G while in pursuit of black bears, whether one intends to kill the bears or not, would be outrageous, as well as a violation of the RTBA. And like Cosmoline, it sounds to me also like the guy was acting like "the fellow started treating the woods as his own private park." Or maybe he WAS thinking like Treadwell, which I also find outrageous.
Furthermore, I searched this entire thread and I couldn't find but one poster who sounded a little bit anti-hunting and it sure wasn't me. I love hunting and have been doing it, quite successfully, for over 50 years. I said I've never hunted behind hounds but that's only because I've never had the opportunity. I don't really approve of the so called "training season" for black bear hounds as it sounds a little like harassment of game to me. But it's legal and I understand that it's the only way to train dogs for hunting bears. Besides, I've argued with bowhunters who feel I'm not being "sporting" enough because I use a .300 Magnum. It's legal and occationally it's the only way to put venison in the freezer on the last day of the season. Now, with the reported "decimation" of Idaho's big game herds by wolves, maybe even my .300 Magnum won't give me any advantage.:D
 
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