Woman arrested in Disney Land for concealed weapon
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nplant said:
Is it? I think this has been one of the more interesting discussions we have had. A great variance of positions have been outlined quite eloquently and I believe we are all learning a lot. The point being discussed is still about why this lady was right/wrong in having her pistol at Disneyworld. Let it go... I can't wait for the next "installment". A new thread would lose the momentum going. Wonderful Posts People!
Green Lantern wrote;
While I am glad you see my point in that regard, I wonder why you would consider not going if you had kids regardless of their "anti-self defense" policy. I for one like to relax every now and again, and when going to one of Disney's theme parks, the last thing on my mind is packing a gun in the unlikely event some nut decides to go postal with a smuggled gun. I understand standing on ones principles, but I would not deny my family the pleasure of such a wonderful place unless they were some type of anti- American business. For instance I have stopped shopping at Citgo because of Chavez and his anti-American diatribe.
I will say this, after reading about the downtown Disney parking lot problems (which I had never heard about before), I will be more alert.
I agree with most of you who feel as if people can and have brought in weapons that were concealed. You do not walk through metal detectors, so it can happen. Does that alone make me want to carry concealed just in case some nut decides to attack innocent people. The answer is no because I weigh the risk and likelihood that something like that will actually happen and deem it very low. If I thought it was a probability, I would just choose not to expose my family and find another place to vacation.
I do carry when I travel up there in the event I break down on the side of the road, and I bring it with me in the hotel room, locking it in the safe when I go to the parks. The irony is that I typically stay on Disney property in their hotels, and do not even know if I am allowed to as far as Disney is concerned. So in a way I am almost as bad as those who ignore Disney's requirement not to bring firearms into the theme parks. I guess I will now check with them on the hotel issue and hope they do not restrict firearms there. If they do, I will have a tough choice on my hands because I hate leaving a firearm in the car despite being locked up.
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Jumping ahead, to the comments about closing the thread, I think it is doing well with a rare exception of those who want to attack others with whom they do not agree. I may not see eye to eye with some here, but I have not resorted to calling them names and questioning their veracity. Fortunately when I stood up to the bullies, they ran away as is typical with most of them. At this point it seems as if we are back to a reasoned discussion/debate.
While I am glad you see my point in that regard, I wonder why you would consider not going if you had kids regardless of their "anti-self defense" policy. I for one like to relax every now and again, and when going to one of Disney's theme parks, the last thing on my mind is packing a gun in the unlikely event some nut decides to go postal with a smuggled gun. I understand standing on ones principles, but I would not deny my family the pleasure of such a wonderful place unless they were some type of anti- American business. For instance I have stopped shopping at Citgo because of Chavez and his anti-American diatribe.
I will say this, after reading about the downtown Disney parking lot problems (which I had never heard about before), I will be more alert.
I agree with most of you who feel as if people can and have brought in weapons that were concealed. You do not walk through metal detectors, so it can happen. Does that alone make me want to carry concealed just in case some nut decides to attack innocent people. The answer is no because I weigh the risk and likelihood that something like that will actually happen and deem it very low. If I thought it was a probability, I would just choose not to expose my family and find another place to vacation.
I do carry when I travel up there in the event I break down on the side of the road, and I bring it with me in the hotel room, locking it in the safe when I go to the parks. The irony is that I typically stay on Disney property in their hotels, and do not even know if I am allowed to as far as Disney is concerned. So in a way I am almost as bad as those who ignore Disney's requirement not to bring firearms into the theme parks. I guess I will now check with them on the hotel issue and hope they do not restrict firearms there. If they do, I will have a tough choice on my hands because I hate leaving a firearm in the car despite being locked up.
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Jumping ahead, to the comments about closing the thread, I think it is doing well with a rare exception of those who want to attack others with whom they do not agree. I may not see eye to eye with some here, but I have not resorted to calling them names and questioning their veracity. Fortunately when I stood up to the bullies, they ran away as is typical with most of them. At this point it seems as if we are back to a reasoned discussion/debate.
She didnt have a CCW it says so in the police report.
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/documents/120907DisneyArrestReport.pdf
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/documents/120907DisneyArrestReport.pdf
Green Lantern
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I don't want to come off as one of those tactical gurus that is always in "condition orange" or higher when out in public, because I'm not.
(Which isn't necessarily a GOOD thing, mind you...)
And I understand the need to relax and have a good time and all...and chances are decent that you & your loved ones will be fine doing so, unarmed, at Disney. But, there are NO guarantees in life.
Now, forgive me if I'm asking something you've gone over already, but do you carry "a lot?" Like everyday, or most days of the week?
I carry all the time (when not at work), and haven't really noticed any detriment of good times had with friends and family.
Though, when I first started CCWing, it was much more prevalent in my mind that I WAS carrying a gun - which did indeed make it harder to "relax." Namely, "am I printing???" worries. Though with time, it becomes routine.
Of course, there's always situational awareness, and I suppose that COULD put a damper on 'relaxation.' I guess? Again, I don't want to lecture as I have no real right to do so based on my own behavior some of the time.
I'm not the only one in my family with a marked aversion to very large crowds anyway. And as for IMMEDIATE family, it's just me. Lest anyone think I have kids I'm denying Disney to because of the anti-gun stance.
Most of the getaways we indulge in are not near as, well, fancy - but we still manage to have a pretty good time every now and then!
If you don't feel safe enough to carry at disney because the probability of being attacked is low there, why don't you just stay in safe hotels where the probability of being attacked is low too. Certainly the fact that one place asks visitors to not bring in weapons isn't the only difference in safety.
Soybomb wrote;
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. Them asking people not to bring guns into their parks alone does not make me feel safe. I certainly feel less safe at a hotel than I would in their parks.
I have the weapon with me primarily for off site excursions, and in the event of a break down on the road. So if they had a high speed rail that went from my city to Disney and I didn't plan on traveling outside of Disney, I would not carry under those circumstances.
It sounds like some here always expect the worse and carry as a result. For the most part I feel pretty secure in my neighborhood and the places I typically travel. I am a big guy at 6' 7" and while that would mean little against a gun, I am probably not the type of easy target many criminals would look for. Still I recognize the need for self protection beyond my physical deterrent, especially in remote or isolated areas. Having a gun has deterred at least two situations that might have turned ugly had I not had it. Once was on the side of a road coming from the Keys, and another late at night in a park. So while I do not have a crystal ball to know exactly when I will need it, I also do not put myself into situations that will typically endanger me. If I feel the need is reasonably warranted I will carry, if the likelihood is low then I don't. It seems like a rational approach to me.
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. Them asking people not to bring guns into their parks alone does not make me feel safe. I certainly feel less safe at a hotel than I would in their parks.
I have the weapon with me primarily for off site excursions, and in the event of a break down on the road. So if they had a high speed rail that went from my city to Disney and I didn't plan on traveling outside of Disney, I would not carry under those circumstances.
It sounds like some here always expect the worse and carry as a result. For the most part I feel pretty secure in my neighborhood and the places I typically travel. I am a big guy at 6' 7" and while that would mean little against a gun, I am probably not the type of easy target many criminals would look for. Still I recognize the need for self protection beyond my physical deterrent, especially in remote or isolated areas. Having a gun has deterred at least two situations that might have turned ugly had I not had it. Once was on the side of a road coming from the Keys, and another late at night in a park. So while I do not have a crystal ball to know exactly when I will need it, I also do not put myself into situations that will typically endanger me. If I feel the need is reasonably warranted I will carry, if the likelihood is low then I don't. It seems like a rational approach to me.
So what is different between being on the side of the road and being in disney land for that matter? Is it just that you feel like there is security and cameras all around at disney?
Not at all, I expect to never need a weapon in life. I do recognize that while the odds are low, what's at stake is very valuable. As a result I take a small precaution just in case. I don't expect my house to ever burn down but I spend money each month on insurance for it just in case because I can't afford to replace it.
This seems like a contradiction to me, the odds of needing a gun in life are so low that you might as well choose to not carry one at all. We're talking a total 154 justifiable homicides by private citizens in the US with handguns in the US, and you have to figure most of those happen at home. If you're going to decide to not play the odds with something important, it seems like the decision should be consistently so. To each his own perhaps.
CDignition
Member
The probability of being attacked was also low at VT, and at the Mall out in Omaha..
I foresee a mass attack at one of these parks in the future. Gun Free zones are soft targets.
I foresee a mass attack at one of these parks in the future. Gun Free zones are soft targets.
Soybomb wrote;
Until this comment I presumed you were being genuine in your written words. If you cannot make the distinction between stranded on the side of the road or being within the confines of a Disney park, no amount of explanation on my part could make the difference. Furthermore, I choose not to believe you are that dumb, so why you asked that is beyond me.
As others have asked on this board, do you take the same precautions on many more likely threats/problems?
Another words, you yourself said the need for a firearm is low, yet you carry just in case. Fine, so do you also carry a portable defibrillator in case you were to have a heart attack or get electrocuted? Depending on your age and health, it is probably a more realistic threat to your life. Do you regularly carry a tourniquet to stop arterial bleeding in case someone in your family suffers a cut that severs an artery?
For that matter, do you inspect and cross reference the materials to flammability charts used to make you and your families clothes? If not why not, since your family is much more likely to encounter heat sources that could cause your cloths to catch on fire as opposed to encounter a deranged gunman.
Until this comment I presumed you were being genuine in your written words. If you cannot make the distinction between stranded on the side of the road or being within the confines of a Disney park, no amount of explanation on my part could make the difference. Furthermore, I choose not to believe you are that dumb, so why you asked that is beyond me.
As others have asked on this board, do you take the same precautions on many more likely threats/problems?
Another words, you yourself said the need for a firearm is low, yet you carry just in case. Fine, so do you also carry a portable defibrillator in case you were to have a heart attack or get electrocuted? Depending on your age and health, it is probably a more realistic threat to your life. Do you regularly carry a tourniquet to stop arterial bleeding in case someone in your family suffers a cut that severs an artery?
For that matter, do you inspect and cross reference the materials to flammability charts used to make you and your families clothes? If not why not, since your family is much more likely to encounter heat sources that could cause your cloths to catch on fire as opposed to encounter a deranged gunman.
CDignition
Member
Hey Vector, do you have a spare tire in your car?? ..
IF you want to go unarmed, for whatever reason, thats fine by me, but just don't impose your will on me...
IF you want to go unarmed, for whatever reason, thats fine by me, but just don't impose your will on me...
CDignition wrote;
Actually as it applies to this thread, it is not my will, but that of Disney's and their right to restrict firearms on their property.
Furthermore, I am not suggesting that you or others not carry, I am just pointing out that if those who plan ahead for possible threats in your life tout carrying guns into places where the threat is unlikely, then do you take similar precautions for other more likely threats to your health and safety?
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Actually as it applies to this thread, it is not my will, but that of Disney's and their right to restrict firearms on their property.
Furthermore, I am not suggesting that you or others not carry, I am just pointing out that if those who plan ahead for possible threats in your life tout carrying guns into places where the threat is unlikely, then do you take similar precautions for other more likely threats to your health and safety?
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divemedic
Member
A lot of crime that occurs at Disney, as well as other Orlando Area theme parks. There have been murders, rapes, and robberies there for as long as I can remember. Disney policy does not even include termination for employees indicted as pedophiles, but does include termination for legal employees caught with CCW. Which poses more danger for children?
Disney security is not armed. There is a detail of Orange County deputies on property, but it is not very large.
Disney spends quite a bit of money maintaining the "Happiest place on Earth" image, and keeps most news of crime on property out of the news. There are a few stories that get out.
I was in Disney World yesterday, and I had my pistol on me then. Security didn't catch me, so the statement that "Disney is gun free" that another poster states he heard from the head of security is false, now isn't it?
I carry there for the same reason I carry anywhere else. What makes you think that there is no crime there?
Hostage situation at hotel on Disney property
Disney contractor douses fellow employee in gasoline and tries to light it
Intoxicated guests assault fellow guests and a LEO with fists and spit
Guests robbed at Downtown Disney
A man in a clown mask robs yet another couple at Downtown Disney
Universal Studios worker arrested on outstanding warrants for Child molestation and assault with a knife
Shooting at Universal Studios
Woman sexually assaulted in the Universal Studios Theme park at the "Revenge of the Mummy" attraction
Large brawl at a Disney arcade starts at 1 am, and isn't handled until 2:20am. This is tight security? An hour and a half?
Lest we claim that theme parks in Orlando have tight security, remember the story of the guy who was swimming naked with Shamu and no one even found his body until the next morning? They can't even spot a naked man swimming with a whale, and you think they can stop armed criminals from robbing people?
Private property rights do not apply like you think, when you are open to the public. Disney can't prohibit certain races, nor can they refuse to provide handicapped access. Remember that Disney property is owned by a corporation, not a person. As such, they do not have the same "endowed" rights as a person who owns property.
The funny thing is that when a business takes away your ability to defend yourself, they never tell you that when you are assaulted on their property, they will hide behind "third party intervention" to evade their responsibility as a property owner.
Sorry, as long as it remains legal for me to carry on property, I will continue to do so.
Disney security is not armed. There is a detail of Orange County deputies on property, but it is not very large.
Disney spends quite a bit of money maintaining the "Happiest place on Earth" image, and keeps most news of crime on property out of the news. There are a few stories that get out.
I was in Disney World yesterday, and I had my pistol on me then. Security didn't catch me, so the statement that "Disney is gun free" that another poster states he heard from the head of security is false, now isn't it?
I carry there for the same reason I carry anywhere else. What makes you think that there is no crime there?
Hostage situation at hotel on Disney property
Disney contractor douses fellow employee in gasoline and tries to light it
Intoxicated guests assault fellow guests and a LEO with fists and spit
Guests robbed at Downtown Disney
A man in a clown mask robs yet another couple at Downtown Disney
Universal Studios worker arrested on outstanding warrants for Child molestation and assault with a knife
Shooting at Universal Studios
Woman sexually assaulted in the Universal Studios Theme park at the "Revenge of the Mummy" attraction
Large brawl at a Disney arcade starts at 1 am, and isn't handled until 2:20am. This is tight security? An hour and a half?
Lest we claim that theme parks in Orlando have tight security, remember the story of the guy who was swimming naked with Shamu and no one even found his body until the next morning? They can't even spot a naked man swimming with a whale, and you think they can stop armed criminals from robbing people?
Private property rights do not apply like you think, when you are open to the public. Disney can't prohibit certain races, nor can they refuse to provide handicapped access. Remember that Disney property is owned by a corporation, not a person. As such, they do not have the same "endowed" rights as a person who owns property.
The funny thing is that when a business takes away your ability to defend yourself, they never tell you that when you are assaulted on their property, they will hide behind "third party intervention" to evade their responsibility as a property owner.
Sorry, as long as it remains legal for me to carry on property, I will continue to do so.
Jamie C.
Member
While people go on about "Property Owner's rights", I think they would do well to remember that there's a difference in a private residence, a factory/manufacturing-type property, and a business that is open to, and caters to, the public. In all three instances the rights that both the owner and visitor(s) has, and how much the property owner can impose their will or opinion on those visiting, varies quite a bit.
For instance, a person can decide who he or she allows into their house/home with very little interference from anyone. A factory owner can stop anyone but employees from entering. A store owner, however, had better be very careful about who he/she says can't shop there, unless they're willing to deal with a discrimination suit and all manner of other trouble.
At the moment, the case before SCOTUS, Heller, has to do with D.C. interfering in a person's right to protect themselves, among other things. Depending on how that turns out, it may only be a matter of time before a similar suit is successful against some other places that don't allow firearms.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that when we're speaking of a property owner such as Disney, it's not the same thing as telling someone who or what they have to allow into their home.
J.C.
For instance, a person can decide who he or she allows into their house/home with very little interference from anyone. A factory owner can stop anyone but employees from entering. A store owner, however, had better be very careful about who he/she says can't shop there, unless they're willing to deal with a discrimination suit and all manner of other trouble.
At the moment, the case before SCOTUS, Heller, has to do with D.C. interfering in a person's right to protect themselves, among other things. Depending on how that turns out, it may only be a matter of time before a similar suit is successful against some other places that don't allow firearms.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that when we're speaking of a property owner such as Disney, it's not the same thing as telling someone who or what they have to allow into their home.
J.C.
Green Lantern
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Now see.....just HOW do you decide the threat is "unlikely?"
Of course, nigh-suicidal things like taking a stroll at 1 am in a dangerous part of town while wearing expensive clothes/jewelry, we can ALL agree is a very likely time you will be attacked. Which is why, of course, we tend NOT to do such things....
Apart from things like that though, you are looking at the world the way it ought to be, not the way it is.
Of course, no one OUGHT to need to defend themselves in "the most magical place on earth" - or ANY place where good, law-abiding folks go to spend time, shop, have fun, get educated, etc.
As others have mentioned, the kids sitting in class at VT no doubt thought a threat was "unlikely" the day Cho did his inhuman deeds - or they wouldn't have been there. Same for Columbine, the Omaha mall, and the location of every OTHER mass killing.
Remember what the VT brass said the day they announced their strict "gun free" policy? A bunch of claptrap about how it would make people "feel safer." Almost prophetic that they didn't lie and say it would MAKE people safer.
Live your life the way you choose, just know that while it may be the "easier" path to take many times, understand that you take a risk every time you willingly opt to "feel" safer rather than BE safer.
And BEING safer is more than packing a gun. It's situational awareness. It's staying away from the sorts of places that might attract people bent on doing harm - be it the aforementioned after-midnight stroll, or going to any sort of "gun-free" zone.
Winchester 73
member
Excellent,Green Lantern.
It can't be said much better.
It can't be said much better.
Thinking about this Disney World (Orlando) situation just reminded me of a situation they had there about 6 to 12 months ago. I don't recall all the details, but it seems that the officials who run Disney were upset that a lot of male youths who typically wear the baggy pants that are about to fall off their butts decided to ban said male youths from roaming their property in gangs.....er... make that "groups".
Anyway, after said ban was announced, it caused a considerable uproar in certain communities because it seems (or at least it was claimed) that these youths were fine upstanding members of the local high school football/basketball teams. I think that Disney finally issued some sort of "clarification" in which they stated that their ban (or whatever it was) was not intended to discriminate, but merely to make the place a more family friendly atmosphere.
The point of my mentioning this is that Disney must have been concerned about the appearance of roaming gangs on their property or else they would never have said anything about it.
Does anyone else remember any of the details of this?
Anyway, after said ban was announced, it caused a considerable uproar in certain communities because it seems (or at least it was claimed) that these youths were fine upstanding members of the local high school football/basketball teams. I think that Disney finally issued some sort of "clarification" in which they stated that their ban (or whatever it was) was not intended to discriminate, but merely to make the place a more family friendly atmosphere.
The point of my mentioning this is that Disney must have been concerned about the appearance of roaming gangs on their property or else they would never have said anything about it.
Does anyone else remember any of the details of this?
divemedic
Member
This article.
I also found one about a bomb that went off at Disney. See how good they are at suppressing stories? I live here and didn't hear about this one.
I also found one about a bomb that went off at Disney. See how good they are at suppressing stories? I live here and didn't hear about this one.
Me and my family were at Disney World this year and no where did I see CCW prohibited. It was not on the tickets or posted on the gate's going into the park. Here in KY, it must be posted in open view that CCW is not allowed before entering and I did not find it anywhere at Disney. As a KY CCW holder, FL honors ours and I never saw it posted that it was not allowed? I spent 7 days with a G23 in the middle of the summer on spring break there and never had a second look or a problem. I had it concealed with me the whole time. I was never asked going threw the bag check points if I had any weapons and never gave way to the fact that I did. I have searched the Disney web site and found nothing saying it was no allowed.
I called Disney after the fact and asked since were going next year and was told from someone in "security" that it was not allowed. When I asked why it was not posted I was told it didn't have to be? When I asked why Disney had different rules prohibiting CCW that are not posted I was put on hold and never talked to again. Maybe someone who lives close could show a link saying it's not allowed, I have no problem spending the 5-6 grand else where for 7 days instead of at Disney.
My point, and I guess question is, where is the proof that it's not allowed? Here say and he-said she-said and worthless.
Also there was no one using any kind of wand or metal detectors of any kind that we saw. This was this past spring break.
I called Disney after the fact and asked since were going next year and was told from someone in "security" that it was not allowed. When I asked why it was not posted I was told it didn't have to be? When I asked why Disney had different rules prohibiting CCW that are not posted I was put on hold and never talked to again. Maybe someone who lives close could show a link saying it's not allowed, I have no problem spending the 5-6 grand else where for 7 days instead of at Disney.
My point, and I guess question is, where is the proof that it's not allowed? Here say and he-said she-said and worthless.
Also there was no one using any kind of wand or metal detectors of any kind that we saw. This was this past spring break.
divemedic wrote;
While I applaud your efforts to make your point, I note that only two of the articles covers violent crime in a Disney park, and even those examples did not endanger patrons. One example was two contracted workers going at each other well after the theme park was closed to the public at 3am.
The other example showed how Disney security had the 5 drunk kids in custody at their security office when the violence erupted. A patron having a firearm would have not made any difference in either situation since it was all away from the public. To me that shows that Disney security and the sheriffs office respond quickly to potential problem within the theme parks.
Again, this does not mean that Disney's theme parks is impervious to any and all violent crime, but considering how many people pass through there yearly, it shows an excellent track record % wise to say the least.
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While I applaud your efforts to make your point, I note that only two of the articles covers violent crime in a Disney park, and even those examples did not endanger patrons. One example was two contracted workers going at each other well after the theme park was closed to the public at 3am.
The other example showed how Disney security had the 5 drunk kids in custody at their security office when the violence erupted. A patron having a firearm would have not made any difference in either situation since it was all away from the public. To me that shows that Disney security and the sheriffs office respond quickly to potential problem within the theme parks.
Again, this does not mean that Disney's theme parks is impervious to any and all violent crime, but considering how many people pass through there yearly, it shows an excellent track record % wise to say the least.
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