Sheldon J
Member
I'm not familiar with a Talon T-200 9 MM but this gal had it blow up in her face while target shooting, video link in the RH corner.
Woman Has gun blow up in Face
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Drgong
Member
this brand was owned by Davis Inc. It was there polymer brand if I recall.
Nuff said
the Davis/Jennings/cobra type design has major question marks as it grew out of the .25 round it was designed for.
These are one of the few "Sat. Night speicals/Junk guns" that have documentation that they go BOOM in the wrong way when people use them.
I googled and found a number of other people who showed there blown up gun and stitches.
Nuff said
the Davis/Jennings/cobra type design has major question marks as it grew out of the .25 round it was designed for.
These are one of the few "Sat. Night speicals/Junk guns" that have documentation that they go BOOM in the wrong way when people use them.
I googled and found a number of other people who showed there blown up gun and stitches.
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SCKimberFan
Member
Holy Crap. Here is a link to another forum with the same gun and same results.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=43768
Looks to me to be a dangerous gun. Yes I said it was a dangerous gun.
Conjecture Drgong, unless you have verification.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=43768
Looks to me to be a dangerous gun. Yes I said it was a dangerous gun.
Conjecture Drgong, unless you have verification.
SCKimberFan
Member
Here are some photos of another Talon T-200. Scary.
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230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Holy cow, it looks like exactly the same design as the Kel Tec PF9, which I have in hand right now.
Stripped it, and except for minor internals, and the fact that my Kel-Tec slide is definitely steel, it looks the same. The fact that it was (and my PF-9 is) a polymer frame had nothing to do with the slide cracking.
I think maybe the extractor is different, but it's hard to tell from the photo in the link.
Glad that guy had no worse injuries than that.
That's a highly-stressed area in "ejection-port-locked" guns. The breech is forced back by the cartridge head, and the pressure forces the front ledge of the barrel against the front edge of the slide port cutout, resulting in high tensional stresses in the area of the ejection port on the slide.
You will note that in the 1911 design, the locking takes place in the front of the ejection port, and in several grooves, and not just against a ledge in the ejection port. I guess the Saint of Utah had it right.
I believe Beretta originally had troubles with that slide cutout for their locking block in the 92 series at first, but bettered their metallurgy. These do not lock on the ejection port (obviously), but the point is that the slide is not just there to run back and forth on the frame, but really does take a lot of stresses and it's worth thinking about that before a designer starts designing cuts in slides.
Stripped it, and except for minor internals, and the fact that my Kel-Tec slide is definitely steel, it looks the same. The fact that it was (and my PF-9 is) a polymer frame had nothing to do with the slide cracking.
I think maybe the extractor is different, but it's hard to tell from the photo in the link.
Glad that guy had no worse injuries than that.
That's a highly-stressed area in "ejection-port-locked" guns. The breech is forced back by the cartridge head, and the pressure forces the front ledge of the barrel against the front edge of the slide port cutout, resulting in high tensional stresses in the area of the ejection port on the slide.
You will note that in the 1911 design, the locking takes place in the front of the ejection port, and in several grooves, and not just against a ledge in the ejection port. I guess the Saint of Utah had it right.
I believe Beretta originally had troubles with that slide cutout for their locking block in the 92 series at first, but bettered their metallurgy. These do not lock on the ejection port (obviously), but the point is that the slide is not just there to run back and forth on the frame, but really does take a lot of stresses and it's worth thinking about that before a designer starts designing cuts in slides.
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Drgong
Member
Eric F - the Hi Point might be Ugly as Sin, but they don't blow up in your face - and people who buy them say they are reliable big ugly guns.
The Talon however, is a gun that Can and will blow up on yourself. Davis owned it, and it was basicly the same raven/jennings/jamerez/davis type mouse pistol with a polymer frame. They went out of bussiness in about two years when there guns started to blow up in people faces.
Many people have heard of a friend of a friend who had a jennings blow up on them, but there never proof. The Talon has many documented cases of it exploding. Might be worth it to turn it in at a "buyback" but that is about it.
They went out of business in around 2001 if my google-foo is correct.
The Talon however, is a gun that Can and will blow up on yourself. Davis owned it, and it was basicly the same raven/jennings/jamerez/davis type mouse pistol with a polymer frame. They went out of bussiness in about two years when there guns started to blow up in people faces.
Many people have heard of a friend of a friend who had a jennings blow up on them, but there never proof. The Talon has many documented cases of it exploding. Might be worth it to turn it in at a "buyback" but that is about it.
They went out of business in around 2001 if my google-foo is correct.
SCKimberFan
Member
That would be the only way to get your money back. With the company out of business, these folks are just SOL.
Great post! Such happenings ought always be brought to shootists' attention ASAP. I admire her calm presentation as she expresses in sum, guns are safe, but this one isn't. Good conduct by the commentators who also were objective and professional, "...dangers of that particular handgun...". Very objective!
Doc2005
Very objective!Doc2005
Drgong
Member
Fair enough, but they have a great CS, you can send it back and get a new gun no questions asked.
scrat
Member
Wow i guess i will put that on the do not buy list
Kentucky-roughrider
Member
This is a gun that should be no a ban list, market pressure will or did do nicely.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
The guy above who mentioned "Nuff said" and the "Davis polymer line" wasn't knocking on polymer guns. He was pointing out that every gun product associated with Davis is a piece of junk.
theotherwaldo
Member
This should be a lesson to manufacturers and gun-tinkers: don't apply blow-back level metallurgy to a locked-breech firearm!
Drgong
Member
Moderator said:
As that poster who said that, just wanted to clarify that while I do not currently own a polymer gun, I have nothing vs. using Nylon 6 for guns, and the XD is a rather nice gun.
the Davis line is a brand that has a terrible reputation, and that is what I was referring to.
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The poor woman's injury was on the left side of her face. Same with the other fellow who had his ka-boom on him. It seems that the ejection port side (right side) allowed pressure to vent and it left the port side (left side) to take the pressure. After overloaded ammo, I'll put my money either on the foundry that did the casting or the steel (?) used by the foundry are at fault. Either way, the entire industry suffers from it.
Drgong
Member
Totally a guess, and actually I think I need to retract that as I do more research it appears to be a common-designed/production based problem.
Changed the post as you are right in questioning that.
jrfoxx
Member
That's what I was thinking. While I'm sure 50 stitches in the lip is REAL painful, all things considered, she did get pretty dar lucky. Could have easily had lots of shrapnel all over her face at a minimun, and a decent sized chunk that hits just the right spot in the skull like an eye or sinus cavity or soething where it may be able to get in and cause serious damage or even death. It's hard to look at a gun blowing up in your face as being "lucky", but considering the possibilities, she really was.
I hope anyone who owns one of these guns hears about this and gets thier's checked out in detail by a good gunsmith, or better yet, find a place that does NDI inspections to get it x-rayed so no internal (not visible to the naked eye due to size, or because there is nothing showing on the surface, but visible underneath) flaws get missed. Sometines a crack can be almost all the way through something, except for the very outermost surfaces. It will look fine to the eye, since you cant see the crack, but can be held together by little more than a very thin coat of paint or metal. Saw some intersting, scary, very dangerous internal cracks just like that in the Navy getting NDI's done on the hardware that suspended out multi-hundred ton vans I worked in, from the ceiling of the hanger bay. They all looked fine, until you saw the xrays.....
May not be easy to find such a place, but they are out there. In fact, that may not be a bad businees idea for someone with the skill and means to start up. If you could keep costs reasonable (which may not be easy doing just guns, may have to subsidize with doing inspections on other small industrial itms too), a gunny NDI service with people who know specifically about guns, could be a good, hopefully profitable, service to help people detect flaws, wear, ect that may go unnoticed until something breaks or stops working right. Might even get some contracts from manufactureres to sample lots for them to increase QC (unless they all already do that, no idea really, but some smaller mfg.'s may find it better to farm out to a third party than buying thier own equipment, hiring tech.'s, etc)
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Well to be fair one of the incidents contains this jewel:
It may very well be the gun but as soon as you say handloads the possibility increases greatly that it was a boo boo of ammo.
It may very well be the gun but as soon as you say handloads the possibility increases greatly that it was a boo boo of ammo.
Slide break at the junction of the ejection port and the "bolt/striker" area. This is the point where a blow-back design gets hammered by the ejecting case during the cycling of the action.
In a locked breech design, the action opens a millisecond after the discharge and so the working pressure in the action drops significantly.
But mostly, the Jennings / Davis guns have cast metal slides. Cast metal lacks the molecular structure necessary to provide structural integrity to the part. Some frames on modern handguns like Ruger are "investment cast" -- but that's a different, more sophisticated process. AND, the frame is not a crucial component in the cycling of the action.
I personally know of three slide failures in Jennings J-22's, a 22 cal. blow back design with a cast slide.
BOOM!
If you're going to spend the $$$ to have the gun cryrogenically examined, may as well toss this junk and buy a firearm. Structural failure is not visible to examination without some very sophisticated equipment.
In a locked breech design, the action opens a millisecond after the discharge and so the working pressure in the action drops significantly.
But mostly, the Jennings / Davis guns have cast metal slides. Cast metal lacks the molecular structure necessary to provide structural integrity to the part. Some frames on modern handguns like Ruger are "investment cast" -- but that's a different, more sophisticated process. AND, the frame is not a crucial component in the cycling of the action.
I personally know of three slide failures in Jennings J-22's, a 22 cal. blow back design with a cast slide.
BOOM!
If you're going to spend the $$$ to have the gun cryrogenically examined, may as well toss this junk and buy a firearm. Structural failure is not visible to examination without some very sophisticated equipment.
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