Woman killed in shootout mentally ill

[Zoogster]

You cannot fix everything with reasonable laws, some things will slip through the cracks in a society with freedom.

The person was already prohibited for multiple reasons and still had a firearm, you don't need another law that prohibited the person again.


Mental problems has been one of the primary fronts of anti-gun efforts for some years now, since the country became more pro-gun overall.
If they can't ban things for people in general, expanding who can be readily prohibited at someone's discretion from having any guns at all for life is another option.
A lot of diagnosis is entirely discretionary, and in such a field once one diagnosis is made other professionals are going to be looking to fit things within that diagnosis, so reaffirm what was already declared and continue to describe things through that diagnosis.
Anyone can be declared to have something, it is merely the perceived severity that causes one person to be diagnosed and another not to be, for the symptoms of various illnesses are present in everyone.
Once used by the judicial system it can easily become standard practice to find a mental illness when so desired, like to restrict the rights of people who have committed no felonies or other prohibiting offenses.
So while it could be used for good in some cases, it would readily become a source of standardized removal of liberties, an easily exploited method of bypassing innocent until proven guilty and the jury system.



Someone prohibited by law for multiple reasons already obtained a firearm and misused it. It happens.
On top of that she was already a wanted fugitive, to be arrested as soon as she had any contact with police. She was going to be locked up and spend some time in jail/prison, no other law was necessary for that, it was just a matter of arresting her.
Well she had contact with police, knew the game was up, had already been in trouble for illegal possession of firearms and knew she possessed a firearm, and probably also knew she was wanted.
She knew she had a good prison sentence coming when she was taken into custody.
A lot of fugitives flip out under the same circumstances. She chose a gunfight with the police and lost.

 

[basicblur]

1.) "You will be responsible for them"...Actually, if the person is an adult, you will NOT be allowed to be responsible for them unless and only to the degree the patient allows it.

It's a bit of a Catch 22-how can a patient make reasonable, informed decisions if they suffer from varying degrees of lack of self-awareness?

2.) Imagine being a witness for the state in which you must tell a judge the most embarrassing and personal anecdotes you can think of, in the presence of the patient and his defense attorney, in order to attempt to convince the court that your own loved one is a danger to himself and others...

Yup-I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to not have the patient in the room as the parties involved discuss episodes/symptoms in order to show the patient is not capable of caring for themselves, and poses a possible danger to both themselves and others-patients' rights laws will not allow you to discuss the patient without them present.
You don't want to say the things that must be said in front of the patient, they don't want to hear them, and will ostracize you if you do so-which further removes a caring relative from the treatment/recovery process.

 

[basicblur]

You cannot fix everything with reasonable laws, some things will slip through the cracks...

When it comes to the mental health system, victims are not falling through the cracks-they are getting shoved into the chasm...

 

[JohnBT]

"Had the lectures? Heck, I've given the lectures."

For 37 years I've tried to work with folks through the ups and downs to get them employed and help them keep a job. Or through school or training and then to work. And then do it again when things go bad.

Every word you've said is accurate.

There isn't nearly enough money for treatment services and the law requires treatment in the least restrictive environment - the community. And the prisons don't want them even if they had room for them.

John

 

[bikemutt]

Here is a video link to TV interviews with family members. This is one sad story.

http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/family-of-woman-killed-in-officer-involved/vFB6P/

 

[basicblur]

I do like the comment section: All she would have had to do is go to a place called Seattle Mental Health They would have helped her no matter what....
Once again, we're back to Catch 22, and a misunderstanding of mental illness.

How can the mentally ill ask for help if one symptom of their illness is they don't realize they need help?

 

[bikemutt]

I do like the comment section: All she would have had to do is go to a place called Seattle Mental Health They would have helped her no matter what....
Once again, we're back to Catch 22, and a misunderstanding of mental illness.

How can the mentally ill ask for help if one symptom of their illness is they don't realize they need help?

Very good point. Help is a valueless offer to one who's not in need of help, or doesn't believe they are, or doesn't know what they believe.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

How'd she manage to have a gun? Dunno about Seattle, but in SoCal and SF Bay area she'd just have to drop by the corner of the local high school campus where the students get their drugs.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I once asked a doctor what the difference between someone who was having problems and insane.

the split is easy he said, ask them
those that are still sane will admit the have problems
those that don't, they're insane

and Art/Rainbow Bob
it's a catch 22

"You will be responsible for them"...Actually, if the person is an adult, you will NOT be allowed to be responsible for them unless and only to the degree the patient allows it.

Like I said, they are legally reduced to the level of a juvenile AND the guardian IS responsible, just they can plead to the judge that the patient/family member was beyond their ability to control. BUT who gets the disability money, who can consent for their care. The person has been declared incompetent. Yet, they are a grown adult, really, it's part of why I don't necessarily blame the family, would you let her near your family?

Sometimes the only option left is to NOT enable them and hope they fall into a safety net.

As for

When it comes to the mental health system, victims are not falling through the cracks-they are getting shoved into the chasm...

It used to be that the seriously ill would be institutionalized, but due to the abuses of the system (esp. civil rights type, as in due process etc.) and the honest truth of 'warehousing'.
But such institutions started as a way to provide a safe environment for those who couldn't take care of themselves and/or posed a danger to society

Also, don't EVER think that just because someone is mentally ill that they are stupid. As for the gun, it's as simple as having had it since before she was so ill, or taking it from a friend or family.

 

[WardenWolf]

The medical and legal system failed here. Plain and simple. This was a case of a family who tried everything in their power to get help for someone, but the state wouldn't listen and wouldn't even follow its own procedures for involuntary committment. The only good news here is that she was stopped before she could seriously hurt anyone.

Contrast this to the parents of Jared Loughner (who shot Congresswoman Giffords) who had to have known their son had severe psychological problems, and was using drugs, but did nothing. You can't even look at him without knowing he's unhinged. Parental denial goes a long ways, but there was no excuse whatsoever for their total inaction. You can definitely place a lot of moral, if not legal, blame on them for what happened.

Sometimes the system doesn't work. We honestly need to find some medium between the old system, where family members could get someone committed, and the current one, where it's nearly impossible. Perhaps a signed statement by family members could be used to force someone to be psychologically evaluated. Not committed, but held for a few days and watched. Something akin to the Baker Act, where an officer can have someone held for 72 hours for evaluation. That might go a long ways towards improving things.

 

[lemaymiami]

Some thoughts here from a policing perspective (since that's who, all too often, has to deal with those with mental problems...). Too many times a violent confrontation on the street involves someone with mental problems (either temporary, from intoxication in one form or other, or chronic (those who've already been diagnosed, that really do need help, but rarely receive it...). For the officers that encounter them these folks range from just sad to absolutely life threatening. On the life threatening end of things you just do what's needed to survive and often the ending is tragic for all concerned. A really skilled experienced street cop often will be much more successful in handling things before they escalate out of control - but not always...

Mental disability and treatment are one of the areas that no level of society deals with very effectively, I'm afraid. We can send a man to the moon but actually curing a schizophrenic, or other serious mental health problem... I'll bet the success rate is very, very low. The scenario I've seen all too many times is someone with a mental health history that has a record of violence being turned loose since their meds keep them on an even keel... then they quit taking their meds and it's off to the races. The families and loved ones of such an individual just get ground down by years of trying to cope with someone in this condition. The various institutions (courts, hospitals, "agencies") are less than helpful most of the time and in many cases the actual facilities needed just aren't there...

Many years ago one of my officers (fairly new, very bright and willing to go out of his way to help someone that needed it...) found a disabled veteran, a serious terminal alcoholic confined to a wheel chair, that couldn't care for himself at all.... and there wasn't any family we could find. That young officer was almost in tears when he reported back to me several hours later that he couldn't find anywhere, or any place that would take the guy (and this is in the major urban south Florida area). Not one bed or institution anywhere.... Can you guess why anyone that causes the slightest trouble and has mental health issues winds up in a jail of some kind?

This is the sort of stuff that rarely makes its way into any of the "cop shows" that are so popular... and it just grinds down everyone that deals with it over time. My hat's off to any family that has to cope with this since we're talking years and years - and there's rarely a good outcome.

 

[rainbowbob]

Another terrible tragedy occurred here in Seattle the last few days as a result of untreated mental illness. In fact it happened just down the street from me. A man who had purposely used his vehicle to murder a complete stranger two years ago just did it again, this time killing a young couple. He never did a day in jail for the first one, as he was adjudicated as insane. He was given some probation time and told to take his meds. No room at the mental hospital. Incredibly, he had a valid driver's license at the time of the second vehicular murders.

At some point, this becomes a public safety issue for ALL of us, not just those that are ill and their families.

 

[Zoogster]

find some medium between the old system, where family members could get someone committed, and the current one,

I disagree. The mental institutions of old were some of the worst things our nation has ever allowed to happen.

It was only a few decades ago that these 'experts' were intentionally giving patients brain damage, sometimes with little more than something similar to a nail and a mallet, called a lobotomy.
Even many real medical doctors were shocked by the method some did this without anesthesia through the eye socket.

They would intentionally damage the frontal lobe, the part of the brain many scientists say differentiates people from animals, so that they would be more machinelike. Zombies if you will. As brain damaged zombies lacking the strongest part of the human mind they often did become less of a problem, and many mental illness went away, along with their personality and ability to connect with other humans.


These patients were often the subjects of the worst medical treatments and experiments, including many that had nothing to do with psychiatry, such as testing vaccines, forced sterilization, and many other things.
The 'insane' were given essentially life sentences even absent a crime, subject to the review of the 'professionals' to be released, bypassing the jury system and sentencing guidelines.
Many of them did have families that were fed up with them, so when they ended up in such facilities they were the perfect victims, with less people than your average prison inmate caring about what happened to them.
They were subject to inhumane treatment, and tons of experimental procedures that could remind one of torture.

When these mental health professionals were given the greatest power of discretion over other human beings they became one of the least responsible groups as a whole we have had in our nation's history.
I for one am glad to see that institution as a whole underfunded and without the prestige it once held.

A man who had purposely used his vehicle to murder a complete stranger two years ago just did it again, this time killing a young couple. He never did a day in jail for the first one, as he was adjudicated as insane.

Which is part of the problem, get rid of that defense as well. Who cares of the 'sanity' of the person that intentionally harms other human beings, especially intentionally kills, they are still a criminal and should be punished accordingly.
I don't care if the guy that killed my loved one insanely enjoyed inflicting harm, or is mentally incapable of empathy, or has delusions. Irregardless of how their mind is processing information they made a clear decision to hurt others understanding they are inflicting harm on another. Even if they have the mind of an ape raised in captivity I would want the ape that has been taught right and wrong punished accordingly too.
But you don't need the inhumane bypassing of liberties that was the asylums our nation once had. Or those experts of such a discretionary field wielding that type of power again.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I don't disagree with you, but look at the establishment of them, it was actually not that far from where we are today, those with sever mental illness living on the street or in prison for crimes.

But such institutions started as a way to provide a safe environment for those who couldn't take care of themselves and/or posed a danger to society

There is a place to acknowledge that a person is unable to care for themselves, their family is unable or not willing to take care of them. This is the sad place that many of the most serious of the mentally ill are right now today. Is it societies responsibility 'take care of' or warehouse them until they kick the bucket? What of those who are a danger to others?

Real moral quagmire
I kinda like the statue up here, a person rarely makes the standard for insanity, rather most are found 'guilty but mentally ill' where they go to prison, do their time, take their meds and are followed after their release (if they are no longer a danger) to ensure they don't become a danger again.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The problem with the collective nature of gun control is it treats everyone in society as if they are no more fit to own a gun than the weakest link.

 

[JohnBT]

"Is it societies responsibility 'take care of' or warehouse them until they kick the bucket?"

It doesn't matter what is decided, there isn't money for it. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of people. Or more. There wasn't money for it before the economy cooled. There wasn't money for it when I started working with the patients being released from the state mental hospitals in the late '70s. You think they got their meds in a timely fashion in the community? I was trying to help them get jobs and the clinics didn't have their files half the time. It took months sometimes for the records to catch up with people after they'd been dumped in rooming houses.

Just one of our state mental hospitals, Central State in Petersburg VA, had 4,043 residents at the end of 1950.

1950.

John

P.S. - Want to apply for mental health services at the local Community Services Board? Take a number.

 

[lemaymiami]

Anyone that does an honest job in the mental health field gets an attaboy from me... I can't think of a more discouraging, difficult environment for anyone to "make a difference" in - much less a career...

 

[rainbowbob]

Anyone that does an honest job in the mental health field gets an attaboy from me...

If there are angels among us...some of them will be found there.

 

[basicblur]

Anyone that does an honest job in the mental health field gets an attaboy from me...

In my numerous dealings with the mental health system bureaucracy, I was struck by how many folks working in the system were formerly mental health patients. They always seemed to be the best of the bunch AFA correcting problems, cutting through red tape, bypassing asinine policies/decisions, and giving good "off the record" advice/suggestions etc.
I guess it comes from both being a victim of the system and having walked a mile in patients' shoes that allows them the insight to empathize with both the patient and their families.

 

[NG VI]

Domestic battery, that means she kicked the *stuffing* out of a family member.

Not neccessarily. All domestic violence charges require for a conviction is any form of contact whatsoever, and given the number of incidents where an individual in an abusive relationship has eventually killed or seriously injured their 'significant' other, courts and juries tend to be extremely casual about the whole beyond a reasonable doubt part of the criminal proceedings. Literally, any contact, does not have to be remotely violent or aggressive even. That's why stripping an individual of their civil rights over misdemeanor domestic incidents is such a controversial practice.

Well... it never says if this is a handgun or not. If it wasn't, then it could be extremely easy for her to get her hands on. Something small and concealable (sawed off shotgun?) could have been used. And its fairly simple to purchase a shotgun. After doing so sawing off the barrel makes it easy to hide.

If it was a handgun it was no doubt an illegal weapon.

If she was a prohibited person (and she was, by way of several legal mechanisms) and she was in possession of a gun (she was, clearly) than she was illegally possessing a weapon, which has absolutely no bearing on whether the weapon itself was illegal or not. Given the scarcity of illegal firearms in the U.S., I am far more inclined to believe she had a gun that was perfectly legal, just not for her to own.

For a prohibited person, a handgun is no more illegal to own than a shotgun or rifle, for everyone the process for buying any gun from a shop is exactly the same regardless of the make and model. I don't know what would make you think that someone could be prohibited from owning firearms but still be able to buy a shotgun from a dealer.

And I don't know what relevance ease of concealment has to the story. Besides, no matter how short a shotgun becomes, it's still a big, heavy shotgun. It'll never be easily concealable, unless you dress like you are from the Matrix and also never move.