"Working Up" From What? (handgun cartridge)

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Obviously most if not all reloaders work up to a desired load and I understand why.

So the question is - (handgun - straight wall) Do you work up from the suggested starting load or do you work up from the middle or do you work up from the max suggested load data?

Here are a few reasons for me asking this:
  1. I never found a lite load to be accurate.
  2. Depending on the powder it also seems to be a waste to start in the middle as I always end up near or over max. (with cast bullets too)
  3. I have never seen common signs of pressure like hard extraction or flat primers with a suggested max.

Also the "start 10% below max" advice seems too low for some of the slow ball powders.

Note: my only experience has been with 44mag/spl, 357mag, 38spl, 38 SW, 40SW and 45acp. 2400, HP38, H110, Unique, Bullseye, Clays, AA5, AA9

So where do you work up from?
 
"Working up" a handgun load is much less demanding than for rifles. Pick what you want and go with the little stuff, there's rarely a lot of difference between guns.
 
I tend to pick a middle of the road load for standard pressure rounds and work up to Max if that is what I want to end up with.

As you noted, there is nothing to look for as far as pressure signs in some calibers.
(If you see any pressure signs with a .38 S&W for instance, it is probably already too late to do anything about it!)

For high pressure calibers, (.40 S&W, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, etc) I start at 10% below max and work up.
Some revolvers will go all the way to max, and some won't before hard extraction rears it's head.

rc
 
I pick the brains of all the guys that hang out here and ask what they recommend.

If several guys recommend the same load, I'll go buy components and if the charge recommended is less than the published max. loads in the load manuals, I'll give the load a try.

Often I can't get the Auto-disk to throw that exact weight, so I err on the side of being light.

I'll only load a couple rounds and when I test the load I'll carefully inspect the fired cases for signs of overpressure.

I realize that a lot of people would not approve of this approach, but it has worked well for me.

But then again, I only use one load that is anywhere near max. and that one I did work up to.
 
Some revolvers will go all the way to max, and some won't before hard extraction rears it's head.

By this I read - your cylinder bore dimensions (smaller/larger) cause the case extraction test to be inaccurate. Should the case extraction test be avoided?

That sounds reasonable.
 
All I know is, chamber dimensions play a part in sticky extraction.
But more importent is the chamber finish.

Cases will fall out of an older 1950's S&W Magnum that will need pounding out of a new Tarui, or even some new S&W's.

And it also depends on the brass you are using.
Some is tempered harder, or work hardend more then other brands so won't stretch and stay stretched as much at high-pressure.

Should it be avoided?
No, it's about all we have to go by in a revolver that means anything at all.

IMO: "Reading primers" in a handgun is right up there with Weegie Boards and Tarot cards in accurate meaningful results.

rc
 
Starting Load

It is called a starting load for a reason. It is where you start. You should always check at least two loading manuals because there is always one manual (out of 6 or 7) whose starting load is way higher than the others. I find that the starting load is often VERY accurate. However, it isn't always reliable in functioning the gun.
You always work up from the starting load. I generally start at the lowest starting load my manuals show and work up from there.
I also like to see at least a grain of difference between starting and max. For example, there are certain calibers and powders I won't work with if, for example, the starting load in 4.1 gn and the max load is 4.5 gn. I see that cartridge/powder combination as being too sensitive for my comfort.
 
I try to start at least near the starting load, but I also compare books for the load data now.

My starting load for .45 ACP was out of the Lyman 49 manual, and turned out to be a good bit below the powder manufacturer's load data, as well as the other manuals.
When I tried to fire them, they were VERY light recoiling, and would barely reset the action, failing entirely to eject or load another round.

On the other hand, I've played with some .38 special loads that are light recoil all the way up to max load.

Personally, I don't want to be a statistic as to proving that yes, the maxes are there for a reason. In the case of the 38 loads, due to very fast powders...
 
Many light loads are extremely accurate.

I like to start in the middle of data, usually, but sometimes start lower, and sometimes start higher, but never at max.

By the time you "see" pressure signs in pistol calibers, you're over pressure. The way primers look means very little, and stuck cases usually mean you are way over, but as rcmodel posted, other things come into play there as well.
 
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As noylj stated, some loads for handguns, the spread of the suggested starting load is VERY close to the max. I too do not use any load like that. That said, seldom is there more than 1.5 grains of powder from starting to max. I usually start at the lowest load, then make four powder increments to reach max. That gives you a good idea if that powder warrants further testing. Of course, that's with one type of bullet.

Revolvers are easier to load for. You don't have to worry about whether the wimpy starting load will cycle the action of a semi-auto pistol. Wheel guns are still my favorites.

Rifle on the other hand gives you a much wider spread of loads. I seldom load the recommended load, usually I pick the center of the load spread as my starting load. Components are expensive, so wasting them on starting loads is not good economy.
 
With straight wall pistol cartridges, I start at the starting load. I may only load 3-5 at that load, but it's just cheap insurance that the data is correct. IME, some of my best handgun loads are on the lighter side.
 
Worked out of a ABC guide to reloading manual that I got at a gun show a few years back. I was loading 223 Remington, and loaded 4 or 5 test loads at minimum. Popped holes in the primers around the firing pin, primers were flat a pancake, and I had to use a squib rod to get the case out of the chamber. I say they, I only fired one. Long story short, I pulled another manual, and did some cross reverencing, seems the book had the 223 loads listed under 224 weatherby mag, and the 224 weatherby loads listed for 223. Never again have I loaded anything with only one reference source (I cross reference everything now), and I am glad that I started with a minimum load back then.
 
It is well to start at the bottom end. I have on several occasions had overpressure signs with the lowest load. When that happens, I don't load more with those powders for that cartridge.

Good advice to always check two or more sources before deciding on a starting load.

One thing I will not do is take someone's pet load and just load it up. I always reduce those 10% and work up.

I realize it is not as easy for many of you to go shoot as it is for me. If you can arrive at a good load without so much fussing around, that is a plus. As has been said, I also find it easier and less of a problem working up a handgun load than a rifle load. In any event, be safe. If you feel the need to take risks, go skiing. :)
 
I'm a newer loader. But, even I know better. I've seen this flood of "reloading power rangers" lately on the net. I'm not sure if these guys ever read the reloading manuals. Have a friend that reloads that gives them advice. Or have ever had a firearm "kaboom" on them. But, quite honestly, the rest of you need to just steer clear of these guys and shut them down when they do show up. They always want to push the envelope and always seem to want to know "how can I push the limits farther than published max loads ...... safely??"

Now here is a guy ...... wanting a blessing with starting out at max loads. Or, at least not happy with starting where all the manuals specifically tell you too. Starting 10 percent lower is much to low for him. And, of course if he asks for info here, and if he reads it on the internet, then it must be true. Plus he admittedly shoots over max regularly anyway.

I thought this place is supposed to be the high road, held to a better example or higher standard. Why aren't the people here shutting this guy down right off the bat?? And advise like "components are expensive, so wasting them on starting loads is not good economy" is some horrible advise. Can we all try to be just a little better than that???

Sorry, maybe I'm just such a newb reloader that I just don't know any better.

So ...... start at max ..... isn't that why it's there. But, that's probably not fast enough either. Plus, they always make those published max loads 10 percent lower than they need to be ....... so why stop there. Why not just start 10 percent over max. Those rediculous SAAMI specs are just an urban myth anyways. (that was sarcasm .... not advise)

4dollarbill and snuffy are dangerous and I'll never let them shoot my stuff or load for me.
 
By this I read - your cylinder bore dimensions (smaller/larger) cause the case extraction test to be inaccurate. Should the case extraction test be avoided?
Absolutely not! Smaller cylinder bore dimensions cause excess pressure. A looser forcing cone allows the bullet to transition more easily into the barrel. That is not the only reason that some cylinders show signs of pressure sooner than others. In some revolvers the cylinder walls are thinner, such as light weight 38 spl's, or some replica 45 colts. Those thinner cylinder walls expand slightly under pressure and contract after the pressure is relieved. This behavior is a certain sign that the cylinder wall is being stressed beyond it's reasonable limits. Brass flows at around 65000 psi, that flow will be visible as deformation in the case head, it usually flows into the extractor recess. This is an important number, because it is far outside safety limits. Most reloaders have seen the early stages of this in rifle loads that went over. That said, take a micrometer and measure your cylinder wall thickness at its thinnest point. Hardened 4140 steel has a yield strength of somewhere around 100 to 130 thousand pounds per square inch. Remember that number. Lets say that you measure .150. and lets also assume that you are measuring a 38. Now measure your cylinder diameter, should be around .380 or something like that (probably larger).
Now plug the numbers into this equation. This equation calculates the hoop stress on an internally pressurized, thick walled cylinder. This is a tensile stress.
X=(((a*a)*p)/((b*b)-(a*a)))*(1+((b*b)/(a*a)))
p is pressure
X is the stress value
a is the inside radius (diameter/2)
b is the outside radius (2 times thickness of wall at thinnest point plus inside diameter all divided by 2)
I won't show my work, but here is the hoop stress on that cylinder at 65000 psi. 124000 psi. That exceeds the bursting pressure of some revolvers, and comes dangerously close to that of others, depending on the Rockwell hardness of the cylinder at Rockwell 25 the yield point is 100000 psi at 34 it is 132000 and at 38 it is 155000. your knife blade is about 40 on the scale. That should scare the crap out of anyone pushing the limits of a revolver.


Although , I agree that some listed loads seem ridiculous, unless I can find a higher maximum load listed in some published reputable manual I will not exceed it. Remember, smokeless powder is progressive powder. As pressure increases, burn rate increases, thus causing the pressure to increase faster, at some point these rates spike sharply upwards. In some powders this can be just above max.

A 10 percent reduction in max. is not a hard and fast rule, it is rather a general rule. In most cases a starting load will be listed, if it is use it. If you are loading someone else's pet load you need to find a manual that lists that load. The reason that I say this is that a hand full of powders have proven dangerous if reduced too much, Hogdon does not recommend reducing H110 loads by more than 4 %. Some rifle powders show the same behavior.
 
I'm a new loader...
Why aren't the people here shutting this guy down right off the bat??...
4dollarbill and snuffy are dangerous and I'll never let them shoot my stuff or load for me...
Sorry, maybe I'm just such a newb reloader that I just don't know any better.

Yeah pretty much they just know more than you;). Not to be mean, just the truth. Some advice; if rcmodel and walkalong have both commented and neither found a problem with the post then there probably isn't one. As has been said, the 10% lower workup rule isn't a stone cold rule, and published data within the min-max data are pretty much always safe (assuming charges are weighed correcty). Also, the max load data listed doesn't mean you can't safely go past it. It isn't the best practice generally to start at max loads, but depending on what you're doing it isn't always wrong. Working up safely to a load past listed maximum is just that: safe. After all, a lot of older manuals had max loads that exceed current data by a grain or two or three, and they were safe. That doesn't mean you can turn a .308 win into a 300mag...

As for me, where I start depends on the cartridge and what I want out of the load. If I want powder-puffs I'll start at min and work up or down. I too have found many min or just below min loads to be very accurate. Gotta be careful with min loads too. If I'm going for speed or have no interest in the bottom of the scale then I'll start somewheres in the middle. Just depends.
 
4dollarbill and snuffy are dangerous and I'll never let them shoot my stuff or load for me.
Pretty strong stuff.

Let's see, snuffy posted...
Rifle on the other hand gives you a much wider spread of loads. I seldom load the recommended load, usually I pick the center of the load spread as my starting load. Components are expensive, so wasting them on starting loads is not good economy.
Pretty much what I do, start in the middle. Wise? Dunno, but it's what many do. I posted much the same, as did others. Many of us have reloaded many years and when using components we are familiar with we don't start at the minimum. We don't start at max either though.

Anyone who suggested starting at the max and work up is being careless. That I will agree with.

With such a wide array of reloading data available to a new reloader with no clue yet about how things work, it can be confusing I am sure. I started with one manual (no web then) and so I was never confused where to start. I went by my Speer manual, and started low.
 
'Nuff bickering

Let's not argue just for the sake of contention, friends.

The OP's question was asked and answered early on. If he didn't like the answers he got, that's his problem.

The component manufacturers - - Usually bullet and powder makers -- go to a lot of trouble and expense to publish their manuals. It is in their own interest that consumers like the results they obtain using those products. Different makers differ a bit on what is suitable use of their products, true. Generally, though, they're within a few per cent of one another. As there ARE a number of sources out trhere, the consumer is free to pick and choose which one(s) he wishes to follow. One thing in common: The manufacturers almost always indicate a "Suggested Starting Load." This is where THEY say to start. The manufacturers have lab people, ballisticians, and other specialists on staff to write their manuals. Either that, or they contract with reputable laboratories of other manufcturers to use THEIR information. It is NOT in the makers' interest to publish only powder puff loads. They have good reason to suggest that the handloader start low and work up. It IS in their best interest to provide good, reliable, SAFE data that generally satisfies the consumer.

Now, if this is not good enough for a particular handloader; if he/she had rather trust some semi-anonymous individual on a discussion board, above the professional staff writing up the loading manuals, well, that's the concern of the individual. No one says you MUST follow all the instructions in the manuals. Feel free to disregard them, but you do so AT YOUR OWN RISK. But, if you DO feel the need to get input from a lot of strangers, does it seem at all significant when they almost universally say one of two things? Specifically, (1) Begin with the starting load suggested in the manual, or (2) Drop at least ten per cent under max and work up from there.

Thanks to TexasRifleman for closing down this thread. Now that I've had my say, it's closed again.

Johnny Guest
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