Would a .44 mag travel 300 yards and kill?

[Remmi]

Ok, So that's a specific round, yeah?

Still, we've got the question of what kind of wall that is. My apartment itself is pretty solid, brickwork over concrete; with the typical drywall and aluminum siding. I wouldn't expect it to stop a high-powered round, but I wouldn't expect that same round to come through that kind of accuracy, and that's some freak luck otherwise.

But again, these are little apartments. A thicker wall would behave differently, and also it was traveling at an upward angle, so it'd have to plow through about eh... 10 to 20% more matieral then if it'd hit a flat 90 degree trajectory, and also we've got how much energy it'd lose because of that non-flat trajectory impact, afterall that's the working principle of modern tank armor.

I don't know, it's a pretty 50/50 split on being possible by 'accident' like that. I'd almost advocate a second shooter.

 

[azredhawk44]

A 44 magnum will travel a lot farther than 300 yards when shot at a 45 degree angle. Or even a 30 degree angle.

At 300 yards and a 50 yard zero, PointBlank says a 240gr bullet moving at 1400fps will drop about 91 inches, or a little less than 8 feet.

91 inches in a 300 yard radius is only 30MOA, not even one degree. Still have 29.5 degrees more to drop in a 30 degree loft.

Guns shoot a long ways.

That same 44mag load drops 1945 inches at 1000 yards; about 162 feet. A 30 degree loft puts a direct sight line about 576 yards above the "zero elevation" of 1000 yards, so the bullet would only drop about 50-60 yards at that range of the 576 necessary to hit the ground.

If the guy hit the street light, then the resulting loss of velocity could bring it down around 300 yards I guess. Maybe.

But if he missed, his 44mag load probably went about 2 miles before it came back down if fired at a 30 degree angle.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The man claimed that he took a deer at 700 yards once. The author of the article said that he was very skeptical about it but all doubt was removed when the man shot a coffee can off-hand from across a canyon.

The man, of course was Elmer Keith, and he shot the deer at 600 yards, not 700, and had witnesses.

The famous 700 yards shots were made more than 30 years earlier, when Harold Croft challenged some of Keith's claims. Keith used Croft's own modified Colt .45s to repeatedly hit a 4X4 foot target at 700 yards.

When you think about it, hitting the mulie at 600 yards was tougher than hitting that target at 700 yard.

 

[Spyvie]

Still, we've got the question of what kind of wall that is.

The houses in that neighborhood are all about 75 – 80 years old and wood framed, the front of the house appears to be coverd in aluminum or vinyl siding.

The is a pic of the front of the house in this post

 

[Hardware]

The question really is; what is the minimum energy needed to kill? So, what's the muzzle energy of a .22 short? GandA shows energy of different manufacturer's .22 short at between 52 and 83 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Since we know .22 shorts have been used to kill with head shots at the muzzle this is the lightest loading I can think of. I don't know if CB caps have been used, or maybe air rifles?

Having established the minimum energy range, now determine if the .44 mag in question has that much energy after travelling 300 yds and penetrating an exterior wall.

Was it the shooter's bullet? Call in CSI, they can tell you within an hour.

 

[SoonerSP101]

Allow me to point out that one of Elmer Kieth's most famous feats was killing a mule deer with a .44 Magnum at 600 yards -- in front of witnesses, who measured the distance later.

He shot into the middle of a heard.

 

[holyroller1]

I think another thing to take into account is relative height or altitude. This can change substantially in the Denver area.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

He shot into the middle of a heard.

No, he didn't. The animal had been wounded by another member of the party. They were tracking it and saw it across a canyon, and Keith shot it with his S&W Model 29.

 

[bhp9mm]

i think this guy shot into this house

 

[44AMP]

Short answer, yes it does.

The .44 Magnum does have enough energy to kill at 300 yards. So di several other handgun rounds. There should be no disputing this obvious fact.

That said, making a killing hit at 300 yards with a handgun is not a common feat, and is beyond the capabilities of many people to produce this result on demand, but not by any means all people. And exceptional shooters are considerably better.

Elmer's witnessed kill on the deer (and one of the witnesses was a judge) was not only amazing for the range, it was also done with a 4 inch M29! He was not any kind of ordinary when it came to shooting, but no amount of good shooting can make up for a cartridge that doesn't have what it takes to do the job in the first place. The .44 Mag does, and so do others.

read Keith's book "Sixguns" if you can find a copy, and you will see that even in the "dark ages" Keith and a few others could do things with handguns that boggle many people's minds, and this in a time before the monster magnums and top flight equipment common today.

In one of his anecdotes, Keith tells of shooting an old outhouse at 700 yards, with a .45 Colt. Even at that extreme distance, the old Colt had enough energy to completely penetrate the 1 inch plank walls, and bury the bullet base flush in the 2x4 frame. Old weathered wood is hard. This gentlemen, is more than sufficient energy to kill a man. And the .44 Mag is considerably more powerful than the old .45 Colt loading.

As to whether or not the suspect is guilty of what they say he did, I cannot say. Could the .44 mag have done what the prosecutor says it did? I don't have enough info to state with certainty one way or the other if it happened as postulated. 300yards, through a wall, and then 2 bodies? The raw energy is there. Is this what actually happened? maybe, but there is more that needs to be known before a solid answer can be given. Bullets can and sometimes do things that seem to defy all logic, based on what we normally see bullets do. But they do happen.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If this article has the facts right (hmmm...), is it even possible to charge someone with first-degree murder using a handgun from 300 yards? I can see some type of negligent homicide, maybe.

I was thinking the same. First degree murder requires both intent AND premeditation. If we can assume that the shooter didn't know the victims and that this was truly a case of (incredibly stupid) New Years celebrating gone bad, then I don't think even 2nd degree murder is an appropriate charge. Where there is no intent, there is no "murder." The appropriate charge should be either manslaughter or negligent homicide.

 

[stevereno1]

pass through a brick wall, no. A trailer park trailer, yes.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Ed McGivern has done 600+ yard revolver shooting as well as Elmer Keith, as documented by various witnesses and in his book Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting.

Same guy would shoot a half dozen clays out of the sky in one throw or empty his wheelgun into an airborne tin can. It really makes you wonder how those old timers did those feats with "antique gear".

I didn't find mention of taking game at 300+ yards but it does mention a hunting trip with Col. D. B. Wesson taking antelope at 200 yards with a S&W .357

 

[akodo]

If this article has the facts right (hmmm...), is it even possible to charge someone with first-degree murder using a handgun from 300 yards? I can see some type of negligent homicide, maybe.

Yes, I think they can. It goes beyond reckless endangerment. Firing a gun in the city for target practice, fun, hunting, is all illegal. Once you are doing something illegal and as a foreseable outcome (even if unlikely)an event occurs that causes a death, that is murder.

 

[Hook686]

Buffalo Bore .44 magnum +P+ has a 340 grain LFN traveling at 1478 fps out of a 7-1/2" Red Hawk (1649 ft-bs) ... that's 735 ft-lbs at 300 yards. In a 5-1/2" Red Hawk, at 1401 fps, one gets 1401 at the muzzle and 702 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

I figure if a .357 magnum poses a theat of passing through a wall and killing folks, then some .44 magnums pose such a threat. I load a 1450 fps 240 grain .44 magnum and get 1500 fps from my 6-1/2" S&W 629 and 1550 fps from my S&W 7-1/2" LH. This gives me 1200 fps and 1550 fps, with 435 ft-lbs and 450 ft-lbs,respectively, at 300 yards. Not quite .357 magnum energies, but sure beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. I suspect some light construction would be at serious risk to those inside.

 

[230RN]

We'll have to wait for hard data to be released.

The only thing I can add is I installed an air conditioner in the wall of one of those old houses once, and it was pretty flimsy construction by today's standards.

Although they were real full 2" x 4" two-by four studs, the centers were at 24 inches, as I recall. And there was nothing between the clapboard and the wooden slat lath and plaster (not drywall) inside. No insulation, no firestops, no nuthin'.

I don't think that kind of construction would have slowed down a .44 Magnum much.

(Pain in the tuchas to install an A/C unit designed to be fit into a wall with 16" centers on the studs, I tell you what.)

 

[buttrap]

Off a rest you can shoot the hell out of 55 gal oil drums with a .44 mag or a .357 so thats just a silly question.

 

[woodybrighton]

possible and likely blokes a dangerous idiot

 

[brickeyee]

""I haven't seen a bullet from .44 Magnum (handgun) travel that far and do that kind of damage," said Ronald R. Scott, a Phoenix ballistics expert who has testified in more than 250 state and federal trials, including several in Denver. "It just doesn't fit.""

Someone needs to check into this bozo's credentials.
200 meters is the range for the IHMSA Ram.
Maybe he is willing to stand out there?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Somebody needs to check out a lot of these bozos -- they routinely talk about things like "cordite" under circumstances where surplus British ammo wasn't involved.

I once testified in a Virginia State Senate committe where the committee chairman was shocked to find there are such things as supersonic bullets. Fortunately, I was able to explain to him that rifle bullets have been supersonic since around 1500 AD.

 

[PawPaw]

+1 what Cosmoline said.

It's amazing how far a hard cast bullet out of a .357 or .44 Magnum will penetrate.

 

[jerkface11]

So if you shoot at a streetlight and it kills someone it's 1st degree murder. However if you shoot at a snake and it kills someone it's manslaughter.

 

[Notch]

"Uh, can Denver's forensics guys not tell the difference between a .44 pistol bullet and something like a .30-06?"...

Just take a look at Co.'s record regarding catching the bad guys. What a joke.

 

[shooter429]

The debate raging in Denver today is whether or not a .44 magnum would travel 300 yards with enough remaining energy to pass through an exterior wall then kill 2 people.

Doesn't anybody read Elmer's work anymore? With the proper bullet, it will still go through an entire house with no problem. The answer is, YES!!!!!! Sheesh.

Shooter429

 

[rcmodel]

Actually a hardcast .44 or even .357 will penetrate much better than a high powered SP round from a rifle. They don't deform easily and their comparatively low FPS keeps them from tearing apart on impact. Walls are nothing to them.

+1
Especially at only 300 yards.
Such a .44 Mag load would probably shoot through a complete wood-frame house at that range.

Someone needs to check into this bozo's credentials.

Boy, ain't that the truth!

BTW: I have routinely shot Magnum caliber handguns at long range my whole life. As a young'n, my dad had an old Model-A Ford pick-up truck in a ditch at just about 250 yards from the barn. I completely wore that thing out with a .357 Blackhawk & a S&W Highway Patrolman.
Even the cast-iron 4-banger engine block was shot up.

Shooting 300 yards with a .44 Mag would hardly break a sweat.
A 240 grain bullet starting at 1,300 FPS would still have more velocity & energy at 300 yards than a .44 Special or .45 ACP has at the muzzle!
Mid-Range trajectory would be less then 32" inches.


rcmodel