It's time we stop talking in generalities and start talking specifics
krimmie said;
Training does not guarantee one will do the right things when poop hits the fan...I base this on some experiences I've had.
Then obviously we should stop training. It's a waste of time and money right?
I don't recall anyone saying that training guaranteed any outcome. But in my experience, people who have trained perform better under stress then those that haven't. Still it's not a guarantee, after all, poorly trained illiterates with 50 year old AKs manage to kill some of the most highly trained soldiers in the world.
I remain fascinated with the assumption that the CCW'r would have had to kill all three battle-rifle wielding jahadists.
He/She/They only have to get one -- thereby getting his rifle -- and change the game thereafter.
I remain fascinated by the out and out speculation, by people who weren't there and have very little idea of what transpired as to what could have been accomplished. Do you think our hero could have just walked up to the Jihadi and said; "Hey mack, got a light?" and when the Jihadi reached for his lighter our hero shoots him in the face, grabs his AK as he falls, flips the selector all the way down to semi and fires two quick hammers, one to the brainpan of each of the other living terrorists. The whole thing takes 4.2 seconds and our hero gets the Croix de Guerre, France adopts mandatory open carry as it hands out surplus MAT 49 submachine guns out of war reserve stocks to anyone who wants one....
Perhaps we should actually look at what's known about the attack:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...clan-concert-hall-without-second-thought.html
Dressed in black, their faces unmasked, the terrorists had screeched up in a black car, and sprayed the adjacent cafe with bullets before bursting into the concert hall.
Among the first to die were those standing closest to the front doors and drinking at the bar. Within seconds, the cracks grew louder and more sustained echoing around the hall with hysterical squeals, and bullet-ridden people began collapsing like dominoes.
However, the hall is quite small, and many of the 1,500 fans were huddled together so tightly that those who were shot didn’t hit the ground at first. Instead, they fell, writhing, against those beside them, drenching them in blood.
So people were packed so tightly into the concert hall that it was nearly impossible to move. How are you going to get out of the crowd and close enough to one of the gunmen to take his AK?
‘Allahu Akbar!’ the terrorists bellowed: a cry that is supposed to glorify the Almighty but has become a mantra for murder. ‘This is for Syria!’ shouted one in flawless French. ‘It’s Hollande’s fault.’ Now it was horribly clear who these men were and what they had come for.
As the militarily organized terrorists took up their positions — one standing sentry in the pillared balcony, others remaining below to pick out the first targets (illuminated by the bright overhead lights) — people fell to the floor.
So you've got one terrorist in an overwatch position above the crowd and two on the ground. That is going to make any movement just a bit problematic, don't you think?
Among the victims was Nick Alexander, 36, a gentle, bearded man from Colchester, much loved on the heavy metal rock circuit, who made his living selling posters and T-shirts. He was there with his American former girlfriend, Helen Wilson, who was shot in both thighs, but lived. ‘It was mayhem,’ she said from her hospital bed.
‘When anyone started running they would shoot them, so we got down on the floor. They machine-gunned everybody.’
Ok, you're standing in that tightly packed crowd and anyone moving out of position is being shot. What's your plan? How are you going to get that rifle and change things?
The random slaughter was to go on intermittently for two hours and 40 minutes. Helen described how the killers chillingly dispatched disabled fans, who were seated in a special area with the best view of the stage. ‘They went into the back room where there were people in wheelchairs and they just started shooting them,’ she said.
Might have been an opening to take some kind of action there, but you still have the Terr standing overwatch in the balcony to contend with.
Two Scottish friends at the concert as a joint birthday celebration managed to sneak down into the cellar below the hall and hide there with some Italian men, listening to the terrible events unfolding above them.
John Leader, an expat Australian, had taken his 12-year-old son Oscar to see his favourite band.
He describes hearing the ‘firecracker’ sound, then feeling the ‘whistle’ of a bullet go past his ear.
‘One of the gunmen was surveilling the crowd while the other was shooting on it,’ he said. ‘People in their sights had no chance of surviving. There was no chance of being a hero because these guys were very organised.’ At one point in the chaos, he said, he became separated from his son and began shouting for him frantically, oblivious to the risk of drawing attention to himself.
So they were methodically picking their targets.
Mercifully, they were reunited; though someone beside Oscar was shot dead and, speaking to CNN, the young boy recalled his distress at being forced to lay next to a corpse — the first he has ever seen in his tender years.
It offered a glimpse of what it must have been like to be in that concert hall, as the seconds and minutes went by and the assassins went about their evil work.
Yet perhaps the most graphic and chilling first-hand description comes from a nameless survivor who penned his account online, a few hours after escaping.
Having thrown himself to the floor as the shooting began, he describes people’s agony as they lay — for almost three hours, let us not forget — ‘on top of each other in contrived, painful positions, face on the ground, head resting on whatever, a leg for example, all on top of a bloodbath.’ Cramped in this grotesque position, he then played out the ‘worst game I have ever played’ — silently holding his breath and remaining motionless and hoping against hope that he wouldn’t be the next one to die.
Praying he could hold out until help came.
‘PLEASE SHOOT THEM... NOT ME’
Periodically, he says, the awful silence was punctuated by gunfire — not in time, with no logic.
‘Nothing. Just gunfire now and again. And we asked ourselves if the next bullet was for us . . . waiting for the police to arrive without any notion of time (I couldn’t get to my phone), feeling people getting up, to suddenly getting shot down. Again . . . and again.’
People were so closely entwined that it was as if they were ‘inter-woven together’.
When someone began to cry, others begged them to hush. ‘Every muscle was numb,’ and it was impossible even to raise one’s head and see what was happening elsewhere in the hall without drawing the gunmen’s attention. ‘So we waited, as if playing lottery with the terrorists,’ the survivor went on. ‘You have these awful thoughts, such as: “I beg, please not me . . . aim at the other side of the hall.”
‘These thoughts are interrupted by gunfire.’
At one point he felt the jolt of a huge explosion — the sound of a grenade being hurled into the pit near the stage, someone later told him. As the noise subsided, people began panicking and writhing, and phones began ringing, bringing more shots and heightening the sense of fear.
Ok, there you are, in the center of the floor, packed into the crowd so tightly that people who are being shot are falling into the people next to them. You are dressed for a rock concert and you have nothing more then your everyday carry.
Tell me how you make a difference. ME, please tell me how you are going to get a rifle, which terrorist you are going to take it from and what you are going to do with it to
radically change the game.
Anyone else is free to weigh in on how you are going to solve this problem.
There it is, eyewitness reports from inside the theater. What are you going to do?
The earlier discussion of if it will or no it won't is hereby terminated. I will delete any posts that don't address your specific actions in this exact situation.
Perhaps then we can decide what difference CCW would have made.
