Would you be willing to go back to the old days before NICS?

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Posted by Ghost Shooter:

Ok as a Democrat (please hold your boos till the end)
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I think we might be at the end: BOO!!!

Well, as has been posted above: There are more used guns for sale than there are new ones at any given point in time.

NICS and 4473's will NEVER do anything to stop crimes commited with a gun.

I'm not a felon, and I live in a rural area. I could leave my house now, and be back for dinner with several used guns. Guns, which you like to call "black market", but I simply call "used".

What makes you think you have the right to take MY rights away for fear of what someone else "might" do?
 
A Question

Why does some sort of registration bother anyone here? You had to register to post your message on this forum. Ya Right Private Property. I had the right not to choose. Yada Yada

Do you people see that with cencorship/banning of any kind it is very difficult for us to mount any kind of an argument for anynonmous gun ownership. Most gunowners support one of the many agendas the "genunine"antis have proposed.

As the Devils Advocate, My question to you. Would you ok a released child molester the license/right to run a day care center?

All I'm saying is that we are guilty of wanting to control others behavior, while preaching this 2nd Amendment banter we show up as hypocrites.
 
As the Devils Advocate, My question to you. Would you ok a released child molester the license/right to run a day care center?
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The problem, as has been pointed out, is that most felons these days are nonviolent. The violent ones already know how to get a gun (and more than likely didn't get the one that they used before through any legal means to begin with) so one more rule to break won't bother them. The nonviolent tax evader didn't use one while filling out the forms but has now lost the right to effective self defense (and will more than likely be the one who will follow the rules (more or less) when released). Laws only apply to those people who obey them to begin with.

A child molester & day care center - no. A tax evader with a CPA license - no. A tax evader who wants to run a day care - sure if there wasn't something else that would prohibit them from doing so (I'm fairly sure that felons aren't allowed to work with kids or at least places that require background checks).

Greg
 
To chainsaw...bravo

To the rest of you (and I am preaching to the inconvertable, but gotta say it)

The 2nd amendment, like all the other portions of the BofR, are interpreted by the SCOTUS. In Freedom of Speech, Press, Relgion, Search and Seizure etc, the Court has historically attemtped to forge a middle ground balancing the needs of society as a whole vis a vis a"right" guaranteed by the Constituion Thats the beauty and superioirty of our system...the rule of law...you may not agree with what they say, and many do not, but the law is the law.

Cry and whine all you like, but the Court, in the best possible outcome that realistically will occur will in fact rule that the 2nd A is an individual right that is subject to reasonable restrictions. What is a reasonable restriction. Its a balancing test...

Using that test, many of the laws on the books today, including the NICS check..pass muster. Some do not.

But to sit here and again argue that Felons have the "right" to buy guns...that is silly..and it destroys the credibility of our movement as a whole.
 
Wildalaska:

Just remember, the Supreme Court upheld slavery at one time.

"Law is law" but that doesn't make it right.

I'm sure the holocaust was also "legal" in Germany at that time.


"call me ... inconvertable ..." (with apologies to Perry Como) :)
 
Chainsaw - Yeah, right, private property, blah blah blah. May as well ignore it, it's only the most critical aspect of the entire damned argument!

If you can'y understand the difference between registering to participate on a private internet forum and being forced to register your personal property with the government, methinks you should just quit discussing the issue.

Wildalaska - Why are you even pro-gun? Seriously.

- Chris
 
Just remember, the Supreme Court upheld slavery at one time.
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yep it did...and many opposed it...and the sup crt ultimately changed course.

And youre correct..law is not necessarily right..but to substitute our judgement destroys the rule of law...

I'm sure the holocaust was also "legal" in Germany at that time.
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Equating the holocaust with the Brady bill is an insult to the dead IMHO
 
So we have WildAlaska again proclaiming that "The Law" is infallible and demands respect just because.

We have Chainsaw making a wonderfully eloquent argument which ignores the fact that:

a) Registration does and has led to confiscation

b) Gun owners have been making compromises since the beginning, and all it has gotten us is MORE and MORE restrictions.


Chainsaw, of the over 20,000 gun laws already on the books, which of them do you think fails to go far enough?
 
Wildalaska: I think that you misunderstand the whole 'rule of law' vs. 'rule of men' issue. You have it, actually, completely backwards. The 'rule of law' is the Constitution. The courts interpreting that law to mean something it does not, as they clearly do often with the 2nd, is 'the rule of men'. If the 'rule of law' changes over time as it is re-interpretted by the courts how was it ever the 'rule of law'? The Constitution is the law, not the court.

- Gabe


"The Constitution is the fundamental law for the federal government. If that government's own courts can arbitrarily change it's meaning, the government becomes a law unto itself --- that is a lawless government, a government of men, not of law."
-- Joseph Sobran

"We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts - not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution."
-- Abraham Lincoln

"Though written constitutions may be violated in moments of passion or delusion, yet they furnish a text to which those who are watchful may again rally and recall the people. They fix, too, for the people the principles of their political creed."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, 1802. ME 10:325
 
I would have no problem with NICS IF I trusted the goverment not to abuse and use the info Thats never goining to happen though. So hell yes down with NICS.
 
Yep. First gun I bought from a store involved plunking down $50 and walking out with the gun. Didn't even leave my name, and got a cash receipt.
 
The whole Brady Bunch NICS crap makes the STUPID assumption that because a bag guy can't pass a background check that he can't get a gun. How assinine is that?? Most of you could get an "illegal" gun on the way home from work if you were willing to take the risk and pay enough for it. Geez, when has a law ever stopped a BG from doing ANYTHING.

"Drugs" have been illegal in for decades. We spent billions (and are spending more every day) fighting the so-called WOD. Thousands and thousands of police are working on this full time, every damned day - yet you can walk into any high school and score in half an hour. That should tell you something.

I say not only should we drop NICS, we should get rid of the '68 GCA. The 4473 is one of the dumbest pieces of government snooping I've seen. The whole process only inconveniences law-abiding citizens. If a criminal wants a gun, he'll get one.
 
First off, I have had a tuff time articulating my position here. I have been completely misunderstood.

I am against most any rule and regulations that exists today. I believe that most rules and regulations are unnecessary. I believe that we could live by the 10 commandments or what you are told in 1st grade etc. Is my idea a perfect one? Probably not, but I would take my chances with jungle law versus what we have now.

The trouble as I see it is that we are hypocrites when it comes to living in total freedom along side our neighbor without all these rules and regulations encumbering our lives.

Why should we expect these antis to go away when most of us support some or many of the arguments on freedom that they espouse? ie; Smoking-cell phones-drivers license-zoning rules-rules on what pets we own- The list could go on.

And yes registering for a forum is what lots of us call the slippery slope when it comes to losing our rights. When registering we agree to a certain behavior. When buying a firearm we agree to a certain behavior. You say they are not related, I can follow that train of thought clearly, but those that wish to remove our freedoms cannot and will not. This will be used against us by unscrupulous people that are nowhere near as nice as us.(That is a story in itself)

You know, there are lots of good arguments in this thread on many good points concerning freedom, but IMO until we back those with certain lifestyles we may not quite agree with, don't expect anyone to get too fired up to back ours. These "genuine" antis are experts at pitting one group of people against another, and gunowners and hunters are easy to cause rifts between.

WE ONLY HAVE THE FREEDOMS WE ARE WILLING TO DEFEND AND AFFORD OTHERS------------Chainsaw
 
Hello All.

Wow, this is a hot one! Okay, where to start?

First, to answerguy:
Nope, I'm not Libertarian, I'm Republican. My question to you is:
Since you think that ex-convicts and persons who are mentally deficient are not to be allowed the right to arm themselves, why do you consent to their right to liberty or to life?

To Wildalaska:

Equating the holocaust with the Brady bill is an insult to the dead IMHO
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Go carefully here. The "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" did not happen overnight. It started slowly and "innocently" enough. As they would tell you at The Holocaust Center, if there were one message to come back to us from the horror of the ovens, it would be "Beware!"
 
answerguy said,
I personally would have no idea how to go about buying a black market gun.
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Well that's because you haven't been to Violent Criminal University... a/k/a prison.

"Guns 101: where to get them now that you'll fail NCIC" is probably a Freshman course.

"Guns 201: How to gun laws work for you" is a Sophmore class.

"Guns 301: Safe work zones" is focus is mainly on CA, MA, MD, NJ -- Junior level

"Guns 401: Teaching what you know" keeping the knowledge alive -- Senior level, must also oversee the lab section for Guns 101 students

"Guns 501: Proactive help for new felons" Graduate level course on how to become a Legislator

lapidator
 
Why should we expect these antis to go away when most of us support some or many of the arguments on freedom that they espouse? ie; Smoking-cell phones-drivers license-zoning rules-rules on what pets we own- The list could go on.
Click to expand...

And that is where you are WRONG in your assumptions about us.

Since discovering TFL, I have had a radically huge shift in my beliefs and ways of thinking.

I now look at things like smoking taxes/restrictions/etc. as restrictions on FREEDOM. If you WANT to kill yourself smoking, well, that's your business. OTOH, having a "non-smoking section" in a restaurant, club, or anywhere, is like having a "no-peeing section" in a pool. It doesn't work.

But I digress...

Besides, who here EVER cried for MORE regulation/restriction of ANYTHING, huh chainsaw???
 
Posted by 80fl

I'm not a felon, and I live in a rural area. I could leave my house now, and be back for dinner with several used guns. Guns, which you like to call "black market", but I simply call "used".

What makes you think you have the right to take MY rights away for fear of what someone else "might" do?
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Hum.. I must have missed something in my post when did I call used guns a "black market" or say I wanted to take away your rights? In fact I said that I would take all the laws away but IF I had to compromise I would leave the NICS system.
nono.gif
Why don't you try reading what I posted instead of automatically assuming that because I said Democrat I'm a gun grabber.
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Believe it or not there are pro gun Democrats out there who believe in the second amendment so don't automatically lump everyone togeather.
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