Would you hot load a .45 Long Colt

[CraigC]

Really? What velocity do you get with your 335 grain .44 slugs?

1350fps with 330's, or 1250fps with 355's. Published loads, at standard pressures.

I might also add that those 330's have a sectional density equivalent to a 360gr .45Colt, which can only be driven to 1150fps. The 355's have a sectional density equivalent to a 395gr .45, which can only be driven to 1000fps. The 395gr .45 is really not very useful, as Linebaugh states, it is over the "balance point" for the cartridge and can't be driven fast enough to be more effective than 335's and 360's. Whereas the 355gr .44 can be driven fast enough to better the 330's.

 

[murf]

from the horse's mouth

i really don't appreciate misquotes and misinformation. for the real deal go to www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm. this is the word from mr. linebaugh himself. well worth the time.

murf

 

[eldon519]

Whenever people get into .44mag v. .45 Colt Ruger pissing contests, the inevitable bullet weight and velocity comparisons usually center around the same data source: Hodgdon. If memory serves, Hodgdon lists .44 mag velocity from a 8.625" barrel and .45 Colt Ruger from a 7.5" barrel bringing their velocites even more closely in line for a given weight. As Craig pointed out though, the most relevant comparison of two different cartridges in different bullet calibers is by velocity vs sectional density in which the .44 mag is the clear winner. .44 mag will have a hair flatter trajectory; .45 Colt will produce a slightly larger hole. Sectional density on the heavyweights doesn't matter a whole lot in my mind though as any of these full-power 300gr and up loads will shoot clean through any animal in North America anyhow and the Linebaugh penetration seminars show the two rounds penetrate about the same in wet newsprint media. Sectional density to me is more relevant for marginally-powered rounds such as autopistols (ex. .45 ACP 185gr and .40S&W 180 gr. They produce about the same ballistics on paper, but one tends to underpenetrate and one tends to overpenetrate. Guess which!)

It is true that the .45 Colt can provide similar external ballistics as a .44 mag at lower pressure, but the flip side of this is that because the .45 Colt is working at lower pressure, it is utilizing its powder less efficiently requiring about 10% more for max H-110 loads. There is no free meal ticket.

I'll expose my bias though: I'm a .45 Colt man.

 

[murf]

oh yeh, if you have the june 2002 issue of handloader magazine, check out the brian pearce article on page 36. another opinion on this subject. if you don't, does anyone know how to get copies of old handloader articles? they are an excellent source of firearms information.

murf

 

[CraigC]

I confirmed Hodgdon's heavyweight .44Mag velocities in a 7½" Ruger.

I don't consider it a pissing contest, at all. I love both cartridges and appreciate them for what they are. I just tire of hearing the same old "more performance at less pressure" nonsense from those who looked no further than Linebaugh's 20yr old article...if that. I also tire of hearing .45 lovers berate the .44Mag. I may come off as a .45Colt hater but I am not, I own four of them and they're all relatively expensive. Including a USFA, late model Winchester 1892, Colt New Frontier and a custom Ruger Bisley Vaquero. I wouldn't have so many if I were a hater. I just prefer a little more realistic perspective and the reality is that the two cartridges are very similar in performance. The .45 is certainly not vastly superior, as its protagonists would have you believe.

You can order backissues at http://www.riflemagazine.com

 

[MCMXI]

The Alaskan has a cylinder made of stronger steel, Carpenter Custom 465 stainless to be exact. It is used for its tensile strength and elasticity. So yes, there a huge difference between the two. The SRH cylinder is also larger in diameter. Larger enough, in fact, that standard .45Colt Redhawks (identical to the Super) can be run to 45-50,000psi. Your unfluted Bisleys are THE guns the standard 32,000psi loads were designed for. No more!!!

I have a Redhawk so you're saying that the cylinder is also made of Carpenter Custom 465 stainless steel? Do you know if the Ruger Alaskan in .44 Mag uses the same steel for the cylinder? If so, and assuming it has the same O.D., it must be rated for an ungodly pressure. What's the heaviest/hottest .44 Mag load known to man? I measured the O.D. of the Redhawk cylinder and it's 1.7780" compared to the SRH's 1.7920".

 

[zxcvbob]

No, it is not. If you believe it to be so, then your knowledge of current .44Mag loads is lacking. Which is typical of .45Colt Kool Aid drinkers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv5fYWy3H9Q (sorry, I can't figure out how to embed video clips)

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I also tire of hearing .45 lovers berate the .44Mag.

I haven't read anything here that I would consider berating to the .44 mag.

The .45 is certainly not vastly superior

I also haven't read where anyone said that the .45 was VASTLY superior. It's simply been stated that it will achieve the same results. It seems to me that you're reading things into the discussion that aren't there.

To the OP, I absolutely would and in fact do on a regular basis. I have a standard New Model Blackhawk and I've went from tame Trail Boss loads to some stuff that's just downright scary.


THE FOLLOWING LOAD IS ABOVE SAMMI SPECS AND SHOULD ONLY BE USED IN RUGER, T/C, OR FREEDOM ARMS FIREARMS
About the hottest load I've loaded was 26 grains of H110 behind a 250 grain Hornady XTP. That comes in at about 1,400 fps and around 28,000 CUP.
Trust me, when you touch those off, the other people at the pistol range will stop what they're doing and see what in the world you're shooting.

 

[suzukisam]

The .45 is certainly not vastly superior, as its protagonists would have you believe.

I haven't seen anyone say it is superior.. I've seen myself and a couple others say that you can get relatively similar performance.. to the degree that what the 45 lacks is marginal, and frankly you have hijacked this guys thread from whether or not he should load ruger only loads, and turned it into an arguement over the two calibers.. the facts are you can get standard 44 velocity from a 45 if in the right gun, without endangering the firearm or shooter... no one is arguing that the 44 can't be pushed farther.. I think the whole point here is that if you have a ruger and want a little more than what the old 45 has to offer than you can achieve a "more modern cartridge"...

Which gains you what, exactly? Similar velocities, not higher. The .44Mag retains a 100fps advantage across the board. In some cases, as much as 200fps.

again argumentative and not the point of the discussion.. and if you don't understand how to quantify what that means you shouldn't be hijacking threads. lower pressure for a given load means that a cartridge with a lower saami pressure can make up the pressure gap in performance.... I really think your making a few assumptions.. one assumption is that by me, or any other making a comparison, we're trying to say they are equal, or the 45 is somehow better.. that's not it all(not for me anyway) my only point in this is that the 44mag has been the standard for magnum cartridges for decades, and I'm merely pointing out that in a ruger, or tc the 'ol "crappy" 45 isn't as far behind as many believe 100-200 fps is marginal, though I believe the 44 stands ahead. I was actually told not to get a 45lc because it was so lacking in comparison, but i had a steal of a deal on a 7.5"BH working and went with it, I have no regrets, I would not sell it for my 44mag, they will both do about any job that either is good for

 

[murf]

guns and religion, hope we haven't scared you away. just having a spirited discussion. we all learn something from them.

if we can help you get started on reloading, give us a shout. we are more than eager to start another discussion. good luck with your decision.

murf

 

[CraigC]

I have a Redhawk so you're saying that the cylinder is also made of Carpenter Custom 465 stainless steel?

I should've been more clear. The cylinders interchange between Redhawks and Super Redhawks but only the .454 and .480 SRH's have cylinders constructed of Carpenter 465.

the facts are you can get standard 44 velocity from a 45 if in the right gun, without endangering the firearm or shooter... no one is arguing that the 44 can't be pushed farther..

Here you are implying that pressures must be pushed. Not sure what "standard velocity" is. The loads I've quoted are all standard pressures for the .44Mag and "Ruger only" for the .45Colt. They are as comparable as they can be.

again argumentative and not the point of the discussion.. and if you don't understand how to quantify what that means you shouldn't be hijacking threads.

Not argumentative at all. You made the statement about "less pressure". I'm asking you to explain what less pressure gains the shooter.

I also haven't read where anyone said that the .45 was VASTLY superior.

Oh please, it happens in every thread like this. The .45 parrots repeat the "more performance at less pressure" until they're blue in the face. Many with practically no understanding of the matter.

Here is what started it all, which I have quoted in my response.

I can easily make 44mag performance levels, and do it with less pressure to boot. I can still equal or beat 44mag performance.

 

[Slamfire]

Ruger only loads will work in a Ruger. This should be obvious. Ruger Blackhawks have much more metal in them than Colt SAA's or Colt SAA replicas.

They won't work in every Ruger. "Ruger Only" loads in a Ruger New Vaquero would be dangerous.

I have enjoyed "Ruger Only" loads from Hodgdon in my Bisley without any problems.

You are correct Sir! No hot loads in a Ruger New Vaquero.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

I would not do it even if the Ruger is capable. Though I have been reloading for 17 years I still don't consider myself to be an expert. I am in the camp of if I need something with greater velocity for example 45colt Ruger loads, I just go to 44magnum or even 454 Casull depending on my needs. We are all humans meaning we WILL make mistakes. First you have to ensure you get the Ruger only load right, then you have to make sure you only use those loads in a Ruger, what happens when you take one of those loads mistakenly and put it in a lesser capable weapon? My fingers and eyes aren't worth that chance to me and something which typically can't be replaced in it's original state. What if in the above situation you hurt yourself and the individual in the lane next to you?

We all have heard a million times and that is still not enough --- safety should be first and foremost when handling weapons, and this is past my safety comfort level.

This is also why it is very hard for me to buy a used Ruger, I know there are proper methods for checking a revolver to ensure it has just been used and not abused I just can't get past the thought.

To try and ensure I am not pilling on and try to be of some use to the original op. Please make sure for you, your family and the people around you at the range you consider safety first and your comfort level with it.

 

[murf]

craigc, you sure those velocities came out of a 7 1/2" ruger? hogdon's 2011 annual reloading manual shows those velocities coming out of a 8.275" pressure barrel. big difference here. pressure barrels do not have a barrel/cylinder gap and usually push bullets at a higher velocity than revolvers.

just a word of caution to those trying to match the hogdon pressure barrel velocities.

murf

 

[murf]

mr revolverguy,

totally agree with safety first. through all this 45lc "ruger only" debate (which has been going on for well over ten years) sturm ruger has never endorsed any of it. all the "ruger only" load data has come from the powder manufacturer. we all do this at our own risk. if it makes one uneasy, don't do it.

murf

 

[suzukisam]

Oh please, it happens in every thread like this.

oh well that makes sense, your pre-hijacking the thread...

Here is what started it all, which I have quoted in my response.

okay so one guy said one thing, your going to keep this going.. we're trying to help the op..just drop it!

the bottom line is OP that your revolver can more than handle it. there are many cartridges that have the same history, the 45-70 is the same deal. the new marlins,ruger no 1, tc, can all take a modern loading over the standard stuff.. it's not pushing the gun or going to hurt anything if like all data you stay well within the specs, if your new to this, then start at base "ruger" levels and just work up slow, they will be just fine to hunt or shoot with no matter where you choose to stop so don't feel you need to push the limits of the higher load catagory

 

[CraigC]

craigc, you sure those velocities came out of a 7 1/2" ruger?

Yeah, pretty sure.

okay so one guy said one thing, your going to keep this going...

Yeah, apparently I have to keep passing around the baby bottle over the Kool Aid reference.

...just drop it!

Grow up, this is a technical discussion on handloading practices, not elementary school. The OP has his answer. I'm waiting for you to explain to us what "less pressure" gains the shooter. For the third time.

 

[csbassplayer2003]

TBQH If I want hot/heavy/quick/powerful/sexy or whatever the heck adjective someone considers proper for "Ruger only" loads I just buy a box of buffalo bore(325 gr Heavy Colt +P) to let people fire off once or twice, otherwise I just reload standard pressure target type stuff. Other than hunting (which I haven't done with a revolver), I consider such loads a novelty ( fun at times) but hardly worth getting worked up in a 45 colt vs 44 mag max effort debate. I bought 45 colt because I saw it as a .45 version of the .357 mag/38 special setup. You get to shoot .38 specials (standard pressure loads) for easy target shooting and inexpensive loads, and .357 mag (Ruger only) for "social work", hunting, or scaring people at the range. Would I handload it at high pressure? Sure, maybe someday, but not right now.

 

[murf]

craigc, that hogdon pressure data you are referencing is in copper units of pressure (c.u.p.). how about showing us a picture of the copper crusher setup you used on that 7 1/2" ruger revolver.

i don't know where you are headed with all this, but i have reached the point where i just don't believe anything you say.

murf

 

[CraigC]

Who said anything about pressure testing equipment???

i don't know where you are headed with all this, but i have reached the point where i just don't believe anything you say.

Why is that??? I'm not "heading" anywhere. All I am trying to say is that the two cartridges offer very similar performance and that neither has a decided advantage over the other. That all the crap we hear about the .45Colt offering "more performance at less pressure" along with the notion that the .45 handles heavier bullets better is outdated. It may have been true when Linebaugh penned his articles but it is no longer. The data is there, the bullets are available, all it takes is a reloading press, the components, a .44Mag sixgun and a chronograph.

Let us also not forget that John Linebaugh, as much as I respect him, makes money building .45Colt's, not .44Mag's.


A quote from John's article regarding test barrels:
"THE 7" PRESSURE BARREL USED TO OBTAIN THE ABOVE VELOCITIES AND PRESSURE DATA IS MEASURED FROM THE MUZZLE TO THE BREECH. THIS WOULD DUPLICATE A 5 1/2' REVOLVER."

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Craig, whether we're totally on the same page or not, I REALLY dig that blued Bisley. Gorgeous!!!

 

[suzukisam]

lower pressure for a given load means that a cartridge with a lower saami pressure can make up the pressure gap in performance.

This was your answer I said it way back.. I'm not going to let you lure me into an argument over pressure, I never said the 45 was superior or that less pressure made it better. There was a discussion at the beginning of this thread about the pressure limits of both cartridges. when merely looking at the c.u.p pressure limits the colt appears to be almost half the cartridge that the 44 is. when you take into consideration that the 45 is a much lower pressure cartridge, that gap isn't really as big as it appears on paper. trying to say I said one was better or that lower pressure puts the colt ahead is putting words in my mouth.... you clearly have had this argument with others and are trying to have it with me and I'm not interested..

 

[CraigC]

Craig, whether we're totally on the same page or not, I REALLY dig that blued Bisley. Gorgeous!!!

Thank you!

This was your answer I said it way back..

Nobody's being argumentative here, you're just avoiding an honest question. I just keep hearing the "less pressure" stuff repeated over and over again as if it is an enviable virtue but nobody bothers to explain what is gained. IMHO, folks repeat this statement made by Linebaugh without having a clue what less pressure gains you. Which is nothing. Some say less recoil, less muzzle blast,etc. I've got a matched pair of custom Rugers, both short barrelled Bisleys, one a .44Mag the other a .45Colt. I can tell you right now that pushing similar bullets to similar velocities you cannot tell one from the other. Or maybe you just jumped in over your head in this discussion and are just trying to save face???

You made the statement, I'm just asking you to validate it. If you don't know, just say so.

Another attribute to be considered is that for a given charge all-things-being-equal a 45lc will produce lower pressure at the same velocity when compared to the 44mag.. I shoot both out of a 7.5 BH 45lc and a SRH VR same length.. kolaid huh...hmmm I'll leave that alonethe 44mag operates at higher pressure, that's why you achieve similar results at lower pressures with a 45lc...

 

[suzukisam]

that is exactly what I said.. and it is true. you just said it yourself in both your guns

I can tell you right now that pushing similar bullets to similar velocities you cannot tell one from the other.

that was my point is that you really can't tell a difference for the most part.. all things being equal. you just said exactly what I said.. and the reason you can't tell a difference is because the 45 is at a lower pressure. if my statement wasn't true, then the 45 would have considerable more recoil to achieve the velocity of the 44..

Another attribute to be considered is that for a given charge all-things-being-equal a 45lc will produce lower pressure at the same velocity when compared to the 44mag.. I shoot both out of a 7.5 BH 45lc and a SRH VR same length.. kolaid huh...hmmm I'll leave that alone the 44mag operates at higher pressure, that's why you achieve similar results at lower pressures with a 45lc...

that is a true statement I'm not sure what the problem is.. see your statement above.. you said the same thing out of two identical guns you can't tell a difference...sheesh seems rather argumentative to me:banghead:... I answered your question, it's just not what you wanted me to say..

 

[CraigC]

Apparently you think I'm being argumentative because you do not understand what I am asking you. It IS a true statement that the .45Colt produces similar results to the .44Mag at less pressure. This should be PAINFULLY obvious. I'm asking you to explain what advantage less operating pressure offers to the shooter. What does it mean? What difference does it make? Why is it used as a point to extol the virtues of the .45 over the .44? In other words, who cares if the .45 operates at less pressure and why?

The bottom line, which is the whole point of my every post, is that there is very little discernable difference between the two. Both have good points and bad points. Neither has a decided advantage. It is not as cut and dried as the .45 true-believers would have you think.