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Would you run or fight? Continued NEW STORY

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by sturmruger, Jun 19, 2004.

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  1. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    Back on May 23rd M2 Carbine started a thread about a shoot out in a Walmart parking lot. Link to old Thread He got a few of the people commenting that do not apreciate "what if" questions. I don't know if they don't like "what if" becuase they are unrealistic or if they think that if you have any doubt how you would handle a situation maybe you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

    For whatever reason as soon as someone posts any sort of "what if" thread usually they get read the riot act. It turns out that M2's thread wasn't to far off. Here is a story I got from Fox news.




    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123084,00.html

    Two Dead as Texas Wal-Mart Standoff Ends

    Friday, June 18, 2004



    GRAND PRAIRIE, Texas — A gunman in a van in a Wal-Mart parking lot killed one police officer and critically wounded another Friday, prompting an hours-long standoff that trapped customers in the store for hours before the attacker was found dead.

    Sgt. Gregory Hunter (search), 54, was fatally shot Friday morning as he and another officer, Bruce Seix, checked on a blue camper-style van that had been parked all night with its engine running, said police spokesman John Brimmer.

    Hunter went to the front of the van and Seix to the side, Brimmer said. The suspect, whose name was not released, shot Hunter at least twice through the front windshield; Seix managed to fire a few rounds before he was wounded.

    John Jacobs, the manager of a Payless ShoeSource near the Wal-Mart, heard three pops, then another volley of pops.

    "When I heard whistling, I knew rounds were coming in our direction. ... I hit the ground and I called the cops," said Jacobs, who was locked alone in the store during part of the standoff.

    Seix, 44, was hospitalized in critical condition after his lung and liver were pierced by bullet fragments, but was "conscious and talking," Brimmer said.

    A SWAT team (search) spent the day trying to negotiate with the man, but he never responded. Brimmer said the man apparently used his cell phone at some point to call his girlfriend.

    About five hours after the shooting, SWAT officers shot several flash-bang grenades and tear gas into the van.

    When officers entered, they found the man dead inside. Brimmer said he appeared to have been wounded by one of the shots fired by Seix.

    For about three hours, 150 Wal-Mart shoppers and 60 employees were locked inside the store as a precaution. Customers said they sat in patio chairs and watched developments on televisions in the electronics department before they were escorted out a back door.

    A Wal-Mart employee told The Dallas Morning News the original call asking police to investigate came after an employee heard a strange noise from inside the van. Brimmer said the vehicle was reported stolen in New Mexico in February.

    Hunter became the Grand Prairie Police Department's (search) first black officer when he was hired in 1973. He left briefly for a security guard job, then returned to the force in 1983. He became a sergeant five years ago, Brimmer said.

    Seix has been a police officer since April 1995.

    Grand Prairie is a suburb between Dallas and Fort Worth.
     
  2. GeneC

    GeneC member

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    Sturm, I'd like to respond to this, as I'm not one of those who hates "what if" scenarios, my pp is all the unrealistic responses of what they'd do. I was hoping something like this would come up ( I don't mean it like it sounds), as it's far better to study reality than it is to sit around and speculate. So lets examine this case. First, the perp wasn't just walking around the parking lot, the reality is (as this and the DC snipers, et al shows), there's a far more likely chance the perp will be concealed in a vehicle. I don't see where ANY CCW got to their trunks got out their long arms and flanked this guy and took him out , as about half the previous responders said they'd do and this was in Texas. So, am I to surmise there simply wasn't any ccw around? Hardly. Next, what actually DID happen is everyone hit the deck (except the ones who didn't and got shot) and called the police. I wonder how long it took the police to respond. The article said people were trapped in Wally world for hours, why? Could it be that as soon as the police arrive , they immediately secure the scene? Imagine what'd happen if they arrived and saw a 'ccw' stalking around crouched between cars with a rifle? They'd have to stop and secure this 'hero' (if they didn't shoot him first) and meanwhile the real BG gets away. No I'm sure the reality is that in cases like this one simply hits the deck or runs for cover and then simply does what the police tells them to do, unless the BG comes right up on them, which isn't very likely. Btw, finally, this article shows that it's LE's job to close with and take out the BG and it's a very dangerous job and sometimes , you don't go home at the end of the day. God bless this officer, Sgt. Gregory Hunter.
     
  3. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    Gene you raise a good point. This was not spot on with the previous thread started by M2, but there was a bad guy in a Walmart parking lot and that makes it pretty damn close. In a situation where a bad guy is holed up in a vehicle I think I would find myself on thr ground with the rest of the crowd. Trying to shoot someone through a van sounds like it would be a little pointless. Especially since most vans have large amounts of privacy glass.
     
  4. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Member

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    Its always instructive to read about Real Life incidents, and to see the resolution, and the steps along the way.

    I am convinced that all the hot air, and bravado online, does NOT translate into action, when crunch time comes. For those that have never been faced with a situation like this, when it happens, all that crap about 'tactical' and 'would have , could have, should have' goes right out the door.

    I for one, and NOT going to charge the perp, guns blazing. I am going to be doing the best I can to get me and mine, the heck out of Dodge.
     
  5. CrudeGT

    CrudeGT Member

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    First, thank you for posting the story, Sturm, the more we know about current BG's the better we can protect ourselves.

    There are few things that stick out in my mind as to why this scenario differs from one that gun owners would get involved in.

    First, the perp did not open fire until police were already on the scene. Police already being there, it is their job at that point, not ours.

    Second, We would be shooting blindly into a van. There is to much risk that most , if not all, of the rounds we would fire would penetrate the van and strike innocents on the opposite side. We would not be able to get close enough to assess the target before we became the target.


    Gene, one of things that I have to mention in response to your post is this, you asked how long the it took for the other officers to arrive on the scene. I'm guessing they got there VERY quickly. Here is why, one officer was dead another was wounded but could still speak. I'm sure that at the same time that the Payless Shoe employee was calling 911, the officer down was radio-ing that one officer was dead and he was injured. That generally brings EVERY officer in the area VERY quickly.

    When I first read the other post I was changed the subject in my head. What if the perp was inside the store. Walking about waiving the gun at people and police were not able to get inside. While I would not feel it was my responsibility to protect everyone else. I would feel that there was something I could do to save lives. And I would try my best to do everything in my power to save innocent lives. the situation changes though once the scenario moves inside because you have more coverage. more ability to sneak up on perp, and not much need to make such a long range shot.
     
  6. Edmond

    Edmond Member

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    To be honest, I would run. I'm not a hero, nor do I play one on TV or believe that what people do on TV with guns is quite believable.
     
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