(TX) Grand Prarie CHL shooting - Totallity of the circumstances?

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Greybeard

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http://www.dallasnews.com/latestnews/stories/011404dnmetshooting.10584c33.html

07:22 AM CST on Wednesday, January 14, 2004

By MICHAEL GRABELL / The Dallas Morning News


GRAND PRAIRIE – A man was arrested on suspicion of capital murder Tuesday after alerting police that he shot two men in his driveway.

Foyil Deal, 63, of Grand Prairie was arrested after police found Wesley Duncan, 40, of Cleburne and Wylie Casey Jr., 35, of Arlington dead in a sedan parked at Mr. Deal's home in the 500 block of Cimarron Trace. Mr. Deal was being held at the Grand Prairie Jail and was expected to be arraigned today, police said.

Police are trying to determine the veracity of Mr. Deal's assertion that he killed both men in self-defense. He told police that the men forced him to withdraw money from an automated teller machine, then threatened him with a baseball bat.



David Carter / WFAA-TV
Investigators collect evidence in the car where the shootings took place.

"They knew of him – how, exactly, it hasn't all come to light," said Detective John Brimmer, a police spokesman. "It wasn't a random thing where they just decided to pick his house out of all the houses in the neighborhood. We have not ruled out that this could have been drug-related."

Mr. Deal told police that the two men – one armed with a baseball bat – forced their way into his home about 8 a.m. and forced him to go with them to an ATM at a local bank. After money was withdrawn, the men drove Mr. Deal back to his house, and he said they again threatened him with the bat.

Mr. Deal, who has a concealed-handgun license, shot both men with a small gun he had in his pocket.

"He told us it wasn't until [the trio returned to the house] that he felt threatened enough to use deadly force," Detective Brimmer said. "Up until then, he said, he was content to let them have the money."

The car was left running with its reverse lights on in the short driveway to a stand-alone garage. Neighbors said there were ski masks and a baseball bat on the ground nearby.

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Video: Melissa Tamplin reports

"I heard one gunshot, and I muted the TV and said, 'That sounds like a gunshot,' " said Keith Young, who lives across the street. "Then I heard, pow-pow."

Detective Brimmer said that even if Mr. Deal did shoot in self-defense, investigators will refer the matter to a Dallas County grand jury to determine whether he will be indicted.

Neighbors said that Mr. Deal had lived at the white-and-green house for about 10 years, keeping mostly to himself except to mow the lawn. He has a son who visits occasionally as well as a nurse who cares for him a few times a week, several neighbors said. Some neighbors also said that there was a steady stream of people knocking on Mr. Deal's door. Late last month, police were called to the house to quell a disturbance.

He's "an elderly man who has had open-heart surgery. He has quite a few medical conditions," said neighbor Kathy Embree.The neighborhood has faced crime problems over the past few years, she said. Neighbors reported burglaries, thefts, loitering and loud noises into the night.

"The cops come here quite a bit, actually," Ms. Embree said. "The boomboxes, the firecrackers, the shootings."

"In other words, we don't let our kids out to play," added her next-door neighbor Laura Mathews. "I've got a 15-year-old that's not allowed out after dark."

Staff writers Jason Trahan and Pat Gillespie contributed to this report.

E-mail [email protected]
 
There is obviously a HECK of alot more to this story then anyone shall know here for a LONG time. Not all of the information is coming out.
 
Yep, I was only half awake sucking on my first cup of coffee this morning when I heard the talking head on local Fox station say that both men "were shot in the back of the head". That has not been repeated in subsequent coverage on the same station ... :confused:
 
Saw this last night on the news...

The media made it sound like a clean shooting (I know, I was shocked) they even empahsized that he was a CHL holder and that he didn't shoot until he felt threatened. It seems that the story is when they returned to the house after going to the ATM the BGs threatned him with a bat.

Two questions...

1.) If he was being threatend with a bat; why were the BG shot in the back of the head?

2.) Why was the shooter booked?

Just curious...

Smoke
 
They could have been amatuer enough to put him in the back seat thinking he was cowed or feeble/old enough to not make a break for it.

Then the guy's intuition or hackles went up that as they drove him back to his house "it would be the end", so as soon as the car stops, but before they move to get out, legality, or how it looks to the cops be damned, he shoots them both in the back of the head.

The disturbance and people trapsing in and out all hours could be the son taking advantage of his sick father and his house, and no-goods who are aquaintences of the son came back for some crime etc.

I'm not saying it isn't more fishy than it was before, but it's just a possible scenario. Still could be a good shoot.
 
Latest news says he is supposed to be arraigned this morning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean (in Texas at least) that a Grand Jury has already ok'd a billing?

I thought in Texas, you were either no-billed, or arraigned?

-SS
 
I don't know all the circumstances in this case.

But my $0.02 is that once someone has threatened me with deadly force (as in a robbery), then they are fair game (unless they have completely withdrawn from the confrontation).

Of course, it might be good tactics to wait until your attacker turns away for a second.... :rolleyes:
 
From a post late yesterday over at GlockTalk ...

Theres alot more to the story
Current press release:

Shooting Update


"Foil Edward Deal was transported to Dallas County Jail last evening after a judge placed a $750,000.00 bond on him for Capital Murder.

Information surfaced during the investigation that lead police to believe that it may not have been necessary for Mr. Deal to use deadly force against Wesley Lewis Duncan and Wylie Bailey Casey.

Both men where shot while sitting in the suspect vehicle after they had returned Mr. Deal to his home. As a result of statements made by Mr. Deal, police have reason to believe that deadly force may have been in excess of the danger posed to Mr. Deal. Police can not discuss the reasons why or disclose what those statements are."

The Grand Prairie Police Major Crimes Unit will be filing two counts of Capital Murder against Mr. Deal with the Dallas County District Attorney. A Dallas County Grand Jury will hear the cases to determine if enough probable cause exists to prosecute the cases.



:confused: :confused:
 
There's a racial angle here as well. Keep in mind that a white guy shot two black guys (perhaps) in the back of the head, in a large urban area with a powerful NAACP, and some remaining traces of serious race-hate from the other side as well.

Regardless of the likelyhood of whichever persons being right or wrong, all politicos involved are going to be covering their own backsides bigtime.

My guess is that he will turn out to be a drug user (or perhaps even dealer) targetted for robbery due to his poor choice of confederates. That doesn't mean it wasn't a clean shoot, but it would complicate things for him a lot.

I will say this, if he tells the jury he was in the process of being robbed, and had been threatened with a ball bat, and they believe him, I don't see any jury in Texas convicting him of capital murder, regardless of whether or not the dead guys had their backs turned.
 
I'm curious how you shoot two people in the back of the head. One I can see, but the second one? I'm not ready to start making accusations, I'm just curious how you pull it off.

I imagine the old guy probably didn't think he needed a lawyer and made a comment on his statement that the cops took notice of. Who knows, maybe to second shootee threw his hands up and yelled "Don't Shoot!" before Archy Bunker pulled the trigger. Maybe it's more scewed up than that.

Somebody keep us posted,

David
 
I guess I confused by the fact that the second person didn't react fast enough to move his head after his friend had been shot. But then nobody knows what happened. For all I know the old man had a fist full of hair!


David
 
I suspect the old guy (and/or his lawyer) is probably articulating details that we would all like to know to a Grand Jury about now ...

If the news is not good, we probably won't hear much more for quite some time. If the news is good (for CHL people anyway), it might well be on the front page of tomorrow's Dallas Morning News - with their slant injected of course ...
 
You have to wonder why the guy never felt threatened enough to defend himself during the start of his kidnapping, drive to the bank, or before he got home. He didn't defend his life until AFTER getting home? That just seems to darned strange to be believed.

I also heard on the news where the deceased guys were shot in the backs of their heads. If the cold coot was in fear for his life, as claimed, then the location of his shots is not critical. HOWEVER, it is going to hard to justify how he managed to shoot both guys in the backs of their heads because he was in fear for his life. He may have a plausible story, and if so, it will be a good one if he is going to explain how two guys, facing away from him, and only possessing one impact weapon (the bat) were threatening his life. Too odd!
 
Like I posted earlier, he may have suddenly had an overwhelming sense of intuition that they were going to kill him once the robbery was complete. His "reasonable fear" level may not have been surpassed until that moment.

He may have been confident he could not draw and present his concealed pistol fast enough without being blugeoned by the baseball bat first, and had to wait for the robbers to give him the opportunity.

He could have been unattended in the back seat because the men were amatureish, or felt overconfident that he was too frightened/beaten to cause them any trouble.

Or, he could have been in the back seat because he was some kind of criminal enterprise with the men, and decided to off them with a "self defense" alibi, and there is foul play involved. We just don't know.

While it certainly deserves extra scrutiny, I don't think that an SD scenario where two BG's are shot in the back of the head is that outlandish. You act when presented with the opportunity, and the BG's forfited any right to "fair play" :rolleyes: once they made the decision to inititate a crime against the victim.
 
"The cops come here quite a bit, actually," Ms. Embree said. "The boomboxes, the firecrackers, the shootings."
"In other words, we don't let our kids out to play," added her next-door neighbor Laura Mathews. "I've got a 15-year-old that's not allowed out after dark."

Sounds like a quagmire to me.
 
In the last two years here in middle Tenn. I know of two men, (in their 30s),
that were beaten to death. No ball bats, just hands and feet. As for me, I don't like the idea of being attacked by two 14 yr olds with a ball bat. I just think maybe the old guy should have shot earlier in the event. What comes to mind is ,"never go to crime scene "B" ".
Mark.
 
Well, the Dallas Morning Lies is already convinced of Mr. Deal's guilt. They are using his middle name!
 
Sudden overwhelming sense of intuition they would kill him and that is why he finally acted? Then the old coot has to be a moron as he should have had that intuition when the broken into his home and kidnapped him.

And yes, you take your best shot when it appeals best to you. If the bad guys present their back side, then they have made a grave tactical error and you seize on the opportunity of the error and do what needs to be done. In Texas, as in other states, you are either justified in the use of lethal force or you are not. If you are, the type, manner, and amount are not in question just as shot placement is not in question. Shooting a person in the back or back of their head is not illegal if you are justified in using lethal force.

My issue with the whole deal is wanting to know/understand how he was in fear for his life from two guys and one impact weapon and was in a position to shoot both in the backs of their heads. I can see where the one with the bat would be shot, but it would appear to mean that he had the advantage and also shot the second in the head and the second did not have the weapon. It will be neat to see how the shooting can be justified that he was in fear for his life from an unarmed guy such that he shot him in the back of the head.

From how things read right now, that sounds very dubious.
 
My issue with the whole deal is wanting to know/understand how he was in fear for his life from two guys and one impact weapon and was in a position to shoot both in the backs of their heads. I can see where the one with the bat would be shot, but it would appear to mean that he had the advantage and also shot the second in the head and the second did not have the weapon. It will be neat to see how the shooting can be justified that he was in fear for his life from an unarmed guy such that he shot him in the back of the head.

If you're a 63 year old man, it can reasonably be argued that you had a justified fear for your life from 2 middle aged men who have both the means and ability to kill you and have already at least once stated their intention to do so.

A wise jurist said this:
'The law shouldn't demand detached reflection in the face of an upraised knife'

There may be more to this incident than we know, but just going by the basic story as reported, I'd say it was a righteous shoot.


You act when presented with the opportunity, and the BG's forfited any right to "fair play" once they made the decision to inititate a crime against the victim.

Indeed.
Was he supposed to wait until he had his head smashed in first? :rolleyes:
 
A 63 year old man who is not in good health, in fact, needling a nurse to come by and help him with things, can EASILY be in fear of his life from one unarmed man in his 30-40s (in good health) who has (a) stated or otherwise communicated his willingness to injure him and (b) made some overt action in furtherance of that statement (ie. committed two violent felonies: kidnapped and robbed him).

Two violent felons try to take advantage of a sick old man. Same die in a hilarious display of tactical errors at the hand of sick old man. Great story for the kids, with a lesson to boot!

I hope he gets no-billed, even if it is a "deal." Two pieces of trash off the street, and a lesson for all other ne'er-do-wells in that community.
 
There may be extenuating circumstances that are not public...yet. I heard on one of the local (Dallas) talk radio shows the shooter admitted to the police he had, in the past, used cocaine, specifically crack.

Granted, he is under a doctor's care and has a home health agency that comes to his house during the week. It would appear he is infirm and possibly disabled. He does have a conviction for DWI in 1978, but no record since then. That does not disqualify him in this state from obtaining a CHL.

The decedents each had recent criminal histories, one for burglary and drug possession, the other for bad checks among several mentioned. The driver of the vehicle was wearing a full-face ski mask, and it was not a cold day here when it happened. Both decedents were from towns other than where this occurred.

Not to dismiss anything at all, but this one does stink a bit. He's still in jail under 750k bond. There has been discussion that his son, who had been staying at the residence, may have been involved in the drug trade and have owed money to the perpetrators.

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Regards,
Rabbit.
 
Texas does not have a defined disparity of force law such that a small or old person can claim being scared simply because the other person was younger or larger. It may come into play during court proceedings, but isn't a defined legal issue.

I have no doubt the old guy could be in fear for his life from a younger guy, but a question that would likely to come into play is that after shooting the first guy in the back of the head, was he still in fear for his life from the second guy who was not facing the old coot? Was the second guy actually behaving in a threatening manner at that time or was he cowering after seeing his buddy's brains splattered about? I would guess the old coot shot the one with the bat first, but that is pure conjecture on my part. If true, then the old guy will have to justify exactly what threat the second robber posed to him at that time, being unarmed and facing away.

Both of the deceased were killed while sitting in a car and were shot in the backs of their heads. It really does sound like the old coot used excess force. He neutralized the first threat with a shot to the back of the head and at that time, what threat did the second guy pose? Interesting, no?

Not only are two scumbags off the street, but we might be happy in knowing that 3 are off the street, at least for now.

Even if the shooting is justified, the old guy will lose his CHL as he admitted to his cocaine and crack habit. That should pretty well put an end to legal CHL for him.
 
If they were going to let him go, then why was the car already in reverse?
The car was left running with its reverse lights on

Perhaps the guys with the ski masks and bat decided to change the plan, and when they put the car into reverse to take him away from his house again, the guy realized that he needed to get out of the situation RIGHT THEN.

More information needed.
 
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