WTH: We are our own worst enemy.

[flyingfeathers]

Gun owners are always right.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm sick and tired of people claiming to support RKBA in one breath and then complaining about people that support RKBA. We talk about crazy Uncle Ted, Rush is in it for the money, the NRA and GOA make fools of them selves, Beck is a right wing nut, Alex Jones is insane, and on and on and on.

I'm as sold-out, hardcore a 2nd-Amendment supporter as you're likely to find anywhere. But I will NOT associate with or support or allow myself to be grouped with liars, and the ranting, screaming frauds who steal legitimacy and support by claiming to align with my views.

Folks who are either insane, pathological, or conniving ratings-sucking frauds, who claim they've seen aliens, publish articles on the moon landing being a hoax, profess that secret codes tell us Obama is setting up a theocratic government, that medical research is Eugenics, Masons and Satanists are serious dangers we need to fear, etc., etc ... well, they aren't welcome to speak for me, or represent me and "my" issues.

I'm not going to treat them with respect, nor allow anyone to believe for a moment that I align in any way with them, merely because, among all the cartoonish cloud of insanity, they happen to claim that something I DO believe in is also important to them. Their huge errors and the caricatures they present of rationality and credibility make their latching on to my core cause an embarrassment and distraction.

I hear Joseph Stalin was a real fan of chocolate ice cream, and we certainly would have that in common, but his other RATHER FLIPPIN' GLARING defects preclude me wanting to see him marching in my chocolate ice cream parade!

What do you want in someone that stand for RKBA????

Someone WORTHY of my respect, and DESERVING of the positive attention of the public.

 

[RPRNY]

And, for the record, Alex Jones does nothing to benefit RKBA. People who strongly support RKBA may tolerate him, as the OP demands, but the MSM love him because he is poster child for the nutjob stereotype they like to portray gun owners. People with limited intellect, melodramatic mannerisms, a limited grasp of the law, and a primary agenda of self promotion do not do RKBA any favors unless their celebrity confers on them sufficient disposable income to make large contributions to effective RKBA organizations, in which case it's probably a wash.

Most "fence sitters " are firearms ignorant. Their knowledge ofbthe issue is formulated by the MSM telling them that the children of Newtown were killed with a "military machine gun ". Then Alex Jones comes on screaming that its his God - given right to own one and anyone who thinks differently is a traitor and a Communist. Despite the fact that he is generally correct, which side should we expect Mr and Mrs Fencesitter to jump down on?

The MSM talking heads regularly ask, rhetorically, "who NEEDS an AR15?". Instead of the approach by Jones et al of foaming at the mouth and screaming that "it doesn't matter because it's my right! ", a simple answer might do RKBA some good with the uninformed public :

1) anyone interested in having among the most effective home defense firearms

2) predator and varmint hunters as well as farmers and ranchers. It is the number one rifle of choice among coyote hunters, for example

3) anyone who believes that he or she may have to at some time defend their country or community from enemies foreign or domestic

These groups of people exceed in number the nearly 4 million Americans who own AR15s today which explains the rifle 's growing popularity. And given that more people are killed every year with hammers, for example, than with any rifle, let alone semi automatic rifles like the AR15, this relentless focus by so - called "gun control advocates " is questionable and suspicious.

This has the benefit of actually answering the question, which removes its rhetorical power. And it provides the ignorant with useful information. Substantially more effective than screamers like Jones.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sam1911]

I too often find hunters and gun toters arrogant shallow minded and cruder than crap.

Unfortunately, absolutely true. When you listen to some of the people who CLAIM to be on "our" side out there in the media ... the mind recoils. They'll say they're hunters and sometimes even say they're gun folks. But their arrogant, shallow, crude, belligerent, lying, whorish, and exploitative ways should be a screaming warning to all of us not to walk in their path.

 

[leprechaun50]

I'm as sold-out, hardcore a 2nd-Amendment supporter as you're likely to find anywhere. But I will NOT associate with or support or allow myself to be grouped with liars, and the ranting, screaming frauds who steal legitimacy and support by claiming to align with my views.

Having folks who are either insane, pathological, or conniving ratings-sucking frauds claim they've seen aliens, publish articles on the moon landing being a hoax, profess that secret codes tell us Obama is setting up a theocratic government, that medical research is Eugenics, Masons and Satanists are serious dangers we need to fear, etc., etc ... well, that means they aren't welcome to speak for me, or represent me an "my" issues.

I'm not going to treat them with respect, nor allow anyone to believe for a moment that I align in any way with them, merely because, among all the cartoonish cloud of insanity, they happen to claim that something I DO believe in is also important to them. Their huge errors and the caricatures they present of rationality and credibility make their latching on to my core cause an embarrassment and distraction.

I hear Joseph Stalin was a real fan of chocolate ice cream, and we certainly would have that in common, but his other RATHER FLIPPIN' GLARING defects preclude me wanting to see him marching in my chocolate ice cream parade!

Unfortunately, absolutely true. When you listen to some of the people who CLAIM to be on "our" side out there in the media ... the mind recoils. They'll say they're hunters and sometimes even say they're gun folks. But their arrogant, shallow, crude, belligerent, lying, whorish, and exploitative ways should be a screaming warning to all of us not to walk in their path.

You sir have a way with words.

 

[TanklessPro]

Someone WORTHY of my respect, and DESERVING of the positive attention of the public.

This is very lofty but.....

where was this person during the last round again the antis?? I did not see them in the spotlight and the spotlight is all that counts. Of course, you don't even know who it is because they don't exist.

As much as we would all like to believe that people research and read to form their views, they don't. The average person gets all of their views from Fox News, CNN,MSNBC, and the like. I'm not saying I like it or agree with it but its the truth. People do not research some of these philosophical minds work that gets posted somewhere.
As much as I dislike this fact...... It's the truth. We can complain about it as much as we want but our words will not change it.
Redneck views from one post..... Thanks for staying objective. I guess you say I cling to my guns and religion next.
I guess from now own I should not type with my tinfoil on
I guess I'm glad to know all the different views, because in my circles I don't get all of these conflicting view points.
Less than 2 weeks after the Senate vote and we have already fallen apart. Like I opened with. We ARE our worst enemy........
And lastly if your not a member of the NRA/GOA or the like then in my view you are not really supportive of RKBA.
I'm done.......

 

[danez71]

Bill O'Rilley says he's for 2A but wants to take away AKs/ARs and is basically for registration.

That's the guy you say is on our side?!?!?

Rush said drug addicts should be executed and rehabilitation doesn't work and then goes into rehab for drug addiction.

You want him on your side? You can have him.

Didnt Ted get busted for poaching? And you want him to represent you? Go right ahead.


Jiminey Crickets... Beck called Jones a fascist. Who do you choose between those two?


You make some generic blanket statements that calls us nuts and then then criticize others that do the same?

Isnt that hypocritical? Oh wait... given who you want to represent you, that shouldn't be surprising.


Frank, Sam and few others have made some good comments. Better than I can make right now.

 

[SabbathWolf]

This is very lofty but.....

...where was this person during the last round again the antis?? I did not see them in he spotlight and the spotlight is all that counts. Of course, you don't even know who it is because they don't exist.

.....

EXACTLY!!!!!

We can sit here and tear down just about anybody you name if we want to.
But that serves no purpose at all.
Tis better to accept all the help we can get from all walks of life.

 

[TanklessPro]

Bill O'Rilley says he's for 2A but wants to take away AKs/ARs and is basically for registration.

That's the guy you say is on our side?!?!?

Rush said drug addicts should be executed and rehabilitation doesn't work and then goes into rehab for drug addiction.

You want him on your side? You can have him.

Didnt Ted get busted for poaching? And you want him to represent you? Go right ahead.


Jiminey Crickets... Beck called Jones a fascist. Who do you choose between those two?


You make some generic blanket statements that calls us nuts and then then criticize others that do the same?

Isnt that hypocritical? Oh wait... given who you want to represent you, that shouldn't be surprising.


Frank, Sam and few others have made some good comments. Better than I can make right now.

I have not said I agree with any person out there. You assume that I do. And by the way every person on the planet has made a mistake or two in their life. I could comment on all of them but I refuse to go there.

I will ask again.........

Who do you "endorse" that supports 2A and RKBA that is in the spotlight?

Still waiting for an answer.......

 

[TennJed]

I frequent a lot of sports forums. Sometime guns get brought up and lots of antis think that Alex Jones is representative of gun owners. That bothers me. The man does way more damage than good. I wish he would go away

I will ask again.........

Who do you "endorse" that supports 2A and RKBA that is in the spotlight?

Still waiting for an answer

Colion Noir

 

[JRH6856]

As much as we would all like to believe that people research and read to form their views, they don't. The average person gets all of their views from Fox News, CNN,MSNBC, and the like. I'm not saying I like it or agree with it but its the truth. People do not research some of these philosophical minds work that gets posted somewhere.
As much as I dislike this fact...... It's the truth. We can complain about it as much as we want but our words will not change it.

Just because most people may choose to get their views from idiots, it doesn't follow that we need to pick an idiotic view to support. No, I'm with Sam and Frank on this one. I'll continue to look for and find credible people WORTHY of my respect, and DESERVING of the positive attention of the public.

If the public is too ignorant to pay attention, then we need to break through that ignorance. And we won't do it by supporting the same ignorance we are trying to overcome.

 

[gc70]

I will ask again.........

Who do you "endorse" that supports 2A and RKBA that is in the spotlight?

Still waiting for an answer.......

We do not need a 'spokesperson' for 2A/RKBA. Singular leaders always pose a bit of a danger - either of getting off-track somewhere down their path or of being knocked off of their pedestal. It is far better to have a number of sound advocates, like those that Sam1911 listed earlier.

 

[danez71]

I have not said I agree with any person out there. You assume that I do. And by the way every person on the planet has made a mistake or two in their life. I could comment on all of them but I refuse to go there.

I will ask again.........

Who do you "endorse" that supports 2A and RKBA that is in the spotlight?

Still waiting for an answer.......

I did not assume that at all. I asked you if those are the guys you want on your side. Read it again.


Obama says he's for 2A and so does O'Riley. But neither are. They both want to ban AK/ARs. They both want to ban 11+ mags.

They both earned my criticism.


My answer: Any or all of the people listed in Franks posts and none of the people in your posts.


I'm still waiting for your answer.

 

[TanklessPro]

I did not assume that at all. I asked you if those are the guys you want on your side. Read it again.


Obama says he's for 2A and so does O'Riley. But neither are. They both want to ban AK/ARs. They both want to ban 11+ mags.

They both earned my criticism.


My answer: Any or all of the people listed in Franks posts and none of the people in your posts.


I'm still waiting for your answer.

Great, more obscure people references. How are these people effecting the "main stream media" that most people are getting their info from???

All I'm saying is why do we attack people that support the same side of 2A/RKBA that we do??? If you don't agree with them, just ignore.I'm all for voicing your opinion on the other side of 2A/RKBA than ours.

 

[TanklessPro]

We do not need a 'spokesperson' for 2A/RKBA. Singular leaders always pose a bit of a danger - either of getting off-track somewhere down their path or of being knocked off of their pedestal. It is far better to have a number of sound advocates, like those that Sam1911 listed earlier.

I agree with you whole-heartedly about having one person, but advocates that never see the light of day? How are they helping?

 

[TanklessPro]

Colion Noir

I like Mr. Colion Noir very much, but I would say is not really in the spotlight, YET. But I have seen some people on here already bash him because he is endorsed by the NRA. Sad.....

 

[coloradokevin]

There's more to a candidate/person than RKBA issues, and that's almost always the case. Since RKBA issues are one of the most important in my mind, I'll almost always support that candidate who supports these rights. But, I have plenty of criticism for other beliefs held by many of these same politicians and celebrity figures (more on that below).

For the record, I voted for Republicans in all but two races during the last election. In one race I voted for a Libertarian candidate because I liked him a whole lot better than the Republican, and in another local race I voted for a Democrat who showed up at my house and talked to me for a LONG time during his campaign for office (his views were entirely acceptable to me, including his RKBA views).

I agree with your frustration. The ideals our nation was founded on are libertarian. I see many people in our nation (on both the left and right, but more voting left) who are intent on forcing everyone else to think and do as they think and do.

I agree with that. I'm pro-gun, generally Libertarian, and I vote Republican more often than not (lesser of two evils, and closer to most of my beliefs).

The problem I see is that both the Republicans and Democrats are trying to take something from Americans, in one way or another. The Democrats are generally more interested in taking the things that are important to me (guns, gun rights, etc), but that doesn't mean that I fully support either party. I'm the kind of guy who believes that my rights end where someone else's rights begin.

My personal beliefs not withstanding, I don't care if my neighbor owns a gun or doesn't own a gun, marries someone of the same sex or marries someone of the opposite sex, has an abortion or has twelve kids, displays a Christmas tree or doesn't display a Christmas tree, goes to church or doesn't go to church, or does or doesn't do anything else that doesn't trample on my own rights. Both of the two leading parties are concerned with one or more issues from column A or column B.

Therein lies the root of some of our problems: I'm straight as an arrow and as gun-loving (and in many ways old fashioned) as they come. But, I have some gay/lesbian friends who also support gun rights, and obviously have some personal concerns with many of the Republican candidates. When push comes to shove I believe that many of the people in that position will vote for the candidate who supports their sexuality over the person who supports their gun rights... it's a bigger issue to people who find themselves in that position, and I don't believe any of them "chose" to be gay (most find it terribly inconvenient).

So, it's hard to argue the issue of gun rights with someone who says in response: "yeah, but your candidate is trying to limit my ability to have a legal relationship with the person of my choosing". And, they're right in recognizing that this is also a big platform issue for many of the gun-loving politicians.

I think the Republicans as a whole (voters and candidates alike) are going to have to seriously rethink their position on a few other issues if we wish to regain control of our state/national legislatures. I'd much rather have a gun-loving gay rights supporting Republican in office than a gay rights supporting gun-hating Democrat.

You may have noticed that I've gone back to the gay rights issue a couple of times. I believe that this one area (coupled with women's rights) is the key to regaining the legislature. It is the area where I saw Romney getting the most criticism during the last election, and it is the area where I saw the most votes lost from people who I personally know as gun lovers.

My own brother (a married straight guy who's okay with gun ownership and favors small government) voted Democrat in the last election because he felt that the Republicans had become too "right-wing" and "religiously oppressive". He's not the only one I know who's gone that direction.


Anyway, that's just some food for thought. We must adapt to some degree in this world, lest we become extinct. On which issues do you most strongly wish to take a stand? Issues related to the defense of our Constitution are at the top of my list!

 

[helitack32f1]

Great, more obscure people references. How are these people effecting the "main stream media" that most people are getting their info from???

All I'm saying is why do we attack people that support the same side of 2A/RKBA that we do??? If you don't agree with them, just ignore.I'm all for voicing your opinion on the other side of 2A/RKBA than ours.

I fully believe that many of those who make negative comments toward others, especially concerning Glenn Beck, are making these statements because they are actually completely ignorant about those they speak poorly of. I am willing to bet that more than 90% of those who criticize Beck on here have never actually heard an episode, heard his NRA convention speeches or read his book on gun control. It is made obvious by their baseless statements. They are basing their opinions on hearsay, statements form a biased media and other uninformed people who have also never actually made the effort to actually have a clue about that which they are speaking. I think a lot of people denigrate Beck, Limbaugh etc. solely because they are ill-informed and want to seem "Enlightened" because they are too good to listen themselves.

The evidence is there that Beck is doing more for the 2nd A than anyone except the NRA and it is being done at great cost to himself, personally and financially. But, close minded people, whether on the left or right are still close minded people.

So, to sum up my answer to your original question, it is all being done by people who seem to think they seem more enlightened by talking bad about others because they have bought into the media lies about most of the talk radio hosts.

Gun owners are their own worst enemies at times as evidenced by the fact that less than 6% of gun owners are willing to do the absolute LEAST they can to protect their rights, which is, spend $25 a year(!) for someone ELSE to fight for them! And a lot of the reasoning behind such a low percentage comes from the same mindset that allows people to denigrate 2nd amendment voices, vote third party or not vote at all because they feel butt-hurt for some reason and are willing to throw the country away in the name of "Standing on principle". 3 million Republicans didn't vote last go around and had they done so, it likely would have made the difference and we wouldn't be having all these issues at this point.

 

[SabbathWolf]

I fully believe that many of those who make negative comments toward others, especially concerning Glenn Beck, are making these statements because they are actually completely ignorant about those they speak poorly of. I am willing to bet that more than 90% of those who criticize Beck on here have never actually heard an episode, heard his NRA convention speeches or read his book on gun control. It is made obvious by their baseless statements. They are basing their opinions on hearsay, statements form a biased media and other uninformed people who have also never actually made the effort to actually have a clue about that which they are speaking. I think a lot of people denigrate Beck, Limbaugh etc. solely because they are ill-informed and want to seem "Enlightened" because they are too good to listen themselves.

The evidence is there that Beck is doing more for the 2nd A than anyone except the NRA and it is being done at great cost to himself, personally and financially. But, close minded people, whether on the left or right are still close minded people.

So, to sum up my answer to your original question, it is all being done by people who seem to think they seem more enlightened by talking bad about others because they have bought into the media lies about most of the talk radio hosts.

Gun owners are their own worst enemies at times as evidenced by the fact that less than 6% of gun owners are willing to do the absolute LEAST they can to protect their rights, which is, spend $25 a year(!) for someone ELSE to fight for them! And a lot of the reasoning behind such a low percentage comes from the same mindset that allows people to denigrate 2nd amendment voices, vote third party or not vote at all because they feel butt-hurt for some reason and are willing to throw the country away in the name of "Standing on principle". 3 million Republicans didn't vote last go around and had they done so, it likely would have made the difference and we wouldn't be having all these issues at this point.

I was with you up until your last paragraph.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...especially concerning Glenn Beck, are making these statements because they are actually completely ignorant about those they speak poorly of. I am willing to bet that more than 90% of those who criticize Beck on here have never actually heard an episode,...

Actually, I used to listen to his radio show off and on for a while -- enough to cure me of any interest in him.

...The evidence is there that Beck is doing more for the 2nd A than anyone except the NRA and it is being done at great cost to himself, personally and financially...

Let's see it.

 

[gc70]

I agree with you whole-heartedly about having one person, but advocates that never see the light of day? How are they helping?

Why are you on THR? Do you have a problem finding a trusted source of information on broadcast media?

The concept of an individual, trustworthy source of information in broadcast media probably ended with Walter Cronkite. Today, broadcast personalities are recognized for what they are - entertainers. People may start with an idea from broadcast media, but anyone who wants real information will do their own research on the internet. And those advocates who "never see the light of day" are identified and brought forward through crowd-searching and discussion by people like yourself and myself as we pursue real information.

 

[12131]

Here is a link to a conversation between one of your "intelligent, well spoken" (Ben Carson) people and one who you probably consider less so, Glenn Beck. Interesting that Mr. Carson doesn't believe that you have a right to own a semi-auto firearm if you live in the city. And Beck is giving keynote speeches for the the NRA in favor of not allowing any of our rights to be infringed.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/conserva...ht-to-semi-automatic-weapons-in-large-cities/

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[BigBore44]

Wow. Guys? Really? This whole thread has done nothing for us. Not one positive comment. We bash those who we don't like. We bash those that aren't perfectly inline with our beliefs. Even bash the OP for a legitimate argument (granted it wasn't posted in the most tactful manner). But the OP has a valid point. WE don't get TV or radio time. The "entertainers" do. WE don't get to put our views out there for the masses except by way of forums, blogs, and emails. When Beck, Limbaugh, and Uncle Ted speak, they reach hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. We don't have to agree with all of them all of the time. I don't agree with every poster on every thread. But I believe that while some posters are misguided (as some believe I am) that we all want the 2A preserved.

Also guys, remember that we aren't all lawyers, and doctors, professors, and well educated, well to do people. I consider myself fairly well educated. And I have a pretty good vocabulary. However, my real education came from the real world. But some posters seem like they are writing from a thesaurus. I find I connect more with your average man than I do with people of the upper echelon. But I'm sure there are many who would not relate to me as well as they would someone like Mr. Ettin. It is obvious that he is a much higher educated man than I am and is much more eloquent and versed. But we are two people from different backgrounds that have a common goal.

I too have never heard of the people that Mr. Ettin mentioned. So my bet is that almost none of the public have ever read anything written by them. So while they may have an abundance of excellent knowledge, it's not reaching the general public. Shame on us. But another poster was absolutely correct. So many people now do absolutely no research on their own to fact check what the media says. They may know it's mostly crap. But they don't have time. Shame on them. But it's just the way it is. And as long as people have children, and have to commute many miles to work, and home, then cook dinner, help with homework, go to all the sports practices and games and then get kids to bed, and then be up to do it all again at 6:00 A.M., it's not going to change.

So what do we do? We can sit around and point fingers at each other, or we can try to come up with a solution to a problem. If you don't want The Nuge, Beck, Hannity, or Limbaugh, then who do we try to bring in? And how do we do it? I think that's what this thread should have progressed to. But it didn't. Again, why?

 

[rookorami]

Bigbore44 I honestly think a figure head may not be the way to go. As you said people are busy. We need to reach out as individuals and be prepared to have an honest conversation with them. Perhaps even get them to the range and share our enjoyment with people. Do what we can to show that we are not the "crazies" that they make the media makes us out to be. I come from an average background, working and paying my way through school. I spend a lot of time engaging others in conversation and do what I can to show a positive image of gun owners and dispel the poor image we have been given. I have had quite a bit of success with this approach. As long as its a figure head or NRA(do not get me wrong I am still a member because the legislation fight is important) the average person is going to think of it as big business or lobbyists and not what we the people want. By taking a personal initiative they have some one they are more ready to speak to and trust.

 

[Kynoch]

This post maybe get locked or deleted, but I have to say this.

I have been reading another post about needing Glenn Beck or not. Some of the comments are unbelievable. WHAT ARE WE THINKING?
I'm sick and tired of people claiming to support RKBA in one breath and then complaining about people that support RKBA. We talk about crazy Uncle Ted, Rush is in it for the money, the NRA and GOA make fools of them selves, Beck is a right wing nut, Alex Jones is insane, and on and on and on.
What are you nuts thinking??????

Because some of those you mentioned and a great many other do damage to our RKBA with their behavior. You might be right that we shouldn't air our laundry in public about their often extremist rhetoric but as far as suggesting what they do is supportive of our RKBA? No way.

How can you continue to vote in Democrats( and yes I said Democrats because your guy says he supports RKBA but supports nominees for SCOTUS that are clearly antis) and bash the people standing up for RKBA in the public forum.

Not all people are one issue voters. I'll give you an example in my own case. IF (and it's NOT) the Democratic Party was Pro-Life and the GOP was Pro-Abortion I would vote Democratic despite my strongly held pro-2A beliefs.

Further, some that are one-issue voters place other issues (like life) ahead of our RKBA.

Again, what are you nuts thinking???? What do you want in someone that stand for RKBA???? When will you learn that what you are doing is hurting the thing that you claim to be so passionate about????

See above.