WWII 1943 Platoon vs. Current 2003 Platoon

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Here's another comparison

Who would win in a HTH fight between TWO full strength WWII platoons (100-120 men) with fixed bayonets and a Roman century (80 or so men) circa 100 AD? Why, I think the Romans would carve up the GIs like so many pieces of pork.

Were the Romans tougher? More physically fit? Better mindset? Better training? Worse technology?

What does this mean? I have no idea. ;)
 
Mons meg

True, True, True:D But the Roman's would win due to their superior sword design. Alas Technology wins again:banghead:
 
I had a reoccurring dream in Boot camp, where I was sniping people from a tree and after killing four of them I was shot out of the tree. What does this mean ? (besides the fact that a lone tree is a bad place to snipe from) I dont know. But I do know that it steeled my resolve to DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE in a battle.
And in the other Life threatening situations I have come under it has served me well, so I believe that the Corps Does have a way of instilling the will to Fight in Battle .
I must add that I have never been in a firefight just several life threatening situations, where I thuoght "So this is how its going to end".
 
What life threatening situations were those, Rick? I am interested in hearing about them if you don't mind sharing.
 
Blaine

some were assorted auto related jobs, some have been Big Pump fires, the one that sticks in my mind the hardest was when a Hydroblasting shotgun (5000 psi) rolled onto the trigger, when I was pulling it up in a pipe rack, it was firing past my head missing me by 6" and I had it gripped VERY akwardly by the barrel just behind the tip with my left hand and I was straddling a pipe 20' off the ground.
The first instant you dont know whether to Poop, Scream or Throw up, the next you buckle down and fix the problem.
I think regular exposer to big fire at Texas A&M fire school help a lot as well.
 
Okay, now I am ticked off. The Americans were the Italians of the Allies in WWII. Sure.

First, the American soldiers were inexperienced early in the war and they were not as disciplined or as effective out of the box as the Germans or the English. That much is true.

However, the American soldier carried the brunt of the effort against the Germans on the Western Front. It was the Americans under Patton and Bradley who pushed the fight in Sicily. It was the Americans who carried the fight forward in Italy, despite some poor leadership early on and despite having to carry the fight against the Germans in tough mountainous terrain where the Germans picked and set their defensive positions. It was the Americans that faced the toughest fighting on D-day at Omaha. It was the Americans that broke out of the Normandy beachhead in operation Cobra. It was the Americans that encircled the German Army in France and while waiting, as ordered, for the British under Montgomery to close the gap, much of the German Army escaped. It was the British under Montgomery that failed again and again despite being given the gas and supplies to take ground quickly enough to succeed in break throughs - first in France and then in Belgium. It was the Americans who due to poor intelligence and disposition took the brunt of the attack during the Battle of the Bulge, yet they held Bastogne and then under Patton turned and attacked faster than any modern army had ever done, crushing the attack. It was the Americans that carried by far the brunt of the war in the Pacific, where the Japanese soldiers by a large margin preferred to die rather than surrender. If you want to rate soldiers on fanaticism to duty and a willingness to die then the Japanese win hands down. Yet we defeated them. The Americans in the Pacific were the brothers of those in the European Theater, they were not a breed apart.

What the American soldiers had in spades that the Germans, the Japanese, the Russians, and to a lesser extent the British did not was a willingness to innovate, that peculiar independence of spirit that comes with freedom and liberty. American soldiers were willing to die, but they didn't want to and they weren't going to blindly follow orders in the name of discipline and get killed when they could get the job done and survive.

By contrast the Italian soldiers did not win any major victories of any significance in WWII. If the Americans were the Italians then the Germans or the Russians would still be in control of Europe today. So please don't tell me how pathetic and ineffective our soldiers were in WWII.

Lastly in regard to the psychologist who claims that only 15 percent or so of soldiers actually fired their weapons or were effective in combat and that todays soldiers because of better psychological training are better killers. I doubt it. First the evidence he has is questionable and his conclusions are even more suspect. Even if it is true that only 15 percent did the killing, it would not be that surprising, look at even non-life and death endeavors like sport. In basketball you always find that most of the scoring is done by one to three people, does that make the rest of the team irrelevant - no there are defensive players, there are those players who don't score much but who still make the big shot when it counts, there are those who put the team first and set up the shooters to take the shot, there are the rebounders and the shot blockers, everyone on a winning team fills an important role. So even if the so-called superior killer training is in effect in the modern military, I'm willing to bet you will still find that only 15 percent are effective killers, by this gurus definition. A deeper examination would find that effective combat units require soldiers to fill many roles. Why, because human beings have been involved in combat since the first organized societies and no miracle training is going to make everyman an elite combat soldier. Maybe genetics or cloning and training will, but no current training technology will. Oh, I am sure that the whatever army is training the troops tells them that they are mean lean killing machines, but that also has been the story told to all soldiers since the first army boot camp. You can train all you want and tell yourself you are a stone killer all you want, but until you are face to face with it you will never truly know.

If you want to claim that our modern soldiers are better trained and more effective than their WWII brothers that is fine, that may be true. God bless them both. But don't crap on the WWII vets by denigrating their accomplishments and attempting to paint them as generally ineffective and a joke when compared to their contemporaries.
 
The Germans in Italy did not surrender till May, 1945. The Cobra plan was adopted from a plan Montgomery used earlier against Caen. The only difference was Monty used 500 and 1000 lb bombs which hindered the advance due to the large craters created. The British failed to complete the encirclement of the German Army in France because almost ALL the German armor was placed against the British sector and not the American sector. The Americans held Bastogne with over 18,000+ troops, over half of which were from the elite 82nd & 101st airborne divisions(they did for the most part have weapons). They were by-passed by the German armored spearhead as was their custom to do. On Patton, he knew BEFORE he left for the conference with Ike and Bradley that he would be ordered to swing north to relieve Bastogne and issued orders to commence the redeployment. When does the clock start, when Patton issued the orders or when Patton agreed to accept the mission from Ike? Remember, Patton (and MacArthur alike) had his own public relations officer and didn't mind "bending" the truth to get the headlines. The term "citizen soldier" has more meaning than what a persons occupation was 12 months previously (pumping gas?). The unpleasant fact is that Russia accounted for 80% of all German losses in WW2 and America's most useful contribution to victory was it's productivety, American made trucks are what allowed the Russians to mobilize their army and pursue the Germans. Again, my father fought bravely in Europe but the popular "facts" differ from the documented historical facts.
 
The unpleasant fact is that Russia accounted for 80% of all German losses in WW2

Russia or the Russian winter? Russian Army or true "citizen soldiers" of Russia?

You can bet that if we would have had Nazi troops on American soil, the numbers would have been skewed THAT way.

Personally, I believe Overlord was the key to Allied victory. How succesful do you think that would have been without our boys?

All that having been said, a modern infantry platoon would destroy it's 1943 counterpart. Don't let nostalgia overpower your common sense.
 
I want to make myself clear. I, that's me, am not denigrating the WWII soldier. I agree with mack about the team concept and your "go-to" guys. The original question was whether a WWII platoon or a contemporary platoon would win or something like that, I gets confused. I say the modern platoon would. To say that the modern soldier is better is not to say that the WWII soldier was bad. The modern soldier built on that legacy and the legacy of the Army of the Potomac and the Army of Northern Virginia and the Rough Riders..........
Nintendo generation, couch potato, whatever does not apply to all. What about the NFL defensive back that shucked it all to become a Ranger? If every generation is not getting at least a little measurably better then we're in a nasty rut. I don't know all the empirical data but I know if the good old US of A had not enterred the fray, Chirac would either be eating weiner schnitzel or drinking vodka today.
 
telewinz,

Your post shows that you've read quite a bit of military history, a field that has been dominated in the postwar world by the English, which lends a particular slant to the work. Despite several generations of spinmeisters working hard on it, there is no excuse for the Viscount of Alamein's shameful performance from D-plus one to the fall of Caen.

I've had a long-standing bet with a friend that I can determine the nationality of the author of a WWII history book simply by glancing through the index. I've yet to have to pay up. ;)
 
The unpleasant fact is that Russia accounted for 80% of all German losses in WW2

Considering the amount of actual combat time (June 41-May 45), this should be a no-brainer. That was pretty much constant fighting, not like the Western Front.

America's most useful contribution to victory was it's productivety, American made trucks are what allowed the Russians to mobilize their army and pursue the Germans.

So, we didn't need to get into the war because the Russians were going to win because they had some of our trucks? Our lend/lease policy may have been a good idea but it didn't win the war. Without our soldiers there would have been no Western Front which would have left he Germans able to fight the Russians alone. The Brits and Canadians certainly weren't going to invade Normandy by themselves.

By the way, I still think the modern platoon would win.
 
“The Germans in Italy did not surrender till May, 1945.â€
In May of 1945 Rome and most of Italy was liberated and most of the post D-day effort by the Americans was focused on defeating the Germans in France and Germany, while still prosecuting the war in the Pacific.

“The Cobra plan was adopted from a plan Montgomery used earlier against Caen. The only difference was Monty used 500 and 1000 lb bombs which hindered the advance due to the large craters created.â€

That is like saying that the flanking maneuver was invented by Alexander the Great, both Bradley and Patton also developed similar plans, i.e. given a specific set of facts there are always going to be similar lines of attack. And whether of not one wants to accept as valid the excuse, that Monty’s advance was hindered by 500 to 1000 lb. bombs, the fact is that it was American troops that did execute the plan with spectacular success.

“The British failed to complete the encirclement of the German Army in France because almost ALL the German armor was placed against the British sector and not the American sector.â€

Yes, this was always the excuse Monty used; he always faced the toughest troops and the toughest terrain. Of course they could have let the Americans try to close the gap as they had flanked most of the German forces, but they were ordered not to as that was reserved for the British under Monty – who failed.

“The Americans held Bastogne with over 18,000+ troops, over half of which were from the elite 82nd & 101st airborne divisions(they did for the most part have weapons). They were by-passed by the German armored spearhead as was their custom to do.â€

Oh, I’m sorry Bastogne was those rare good American troops, not the regular Italian ones. And they had all the “good†weapons – unlike the Germans of the rest of the American and the British forces. Yes, the Germans did “initially†bypass the resistance they encountered at Bastogne, then after they realized the necessity of taking it they made a concerted effort to reduce and capture the city and devoted considerable troops and material to that effort – they still failed.

“On Patton, he knew BEFORE he left for the conference with Ike and Bradley that he would be ordered to swing north to relieve Bastogne and issued orders to commence the redeployment. When does the clock start, when Patton issued the orders or when Patton agreed to accept the mission from Ike? Remember, Patton (and MacArthur alike) had his own public relations officer and didn't mind "bending" the truth to get the headlines. “

Yes, Patton had an eye for headlines, and yes he started planning before the meeting, the fact still remains that the bulk of the movement and redeployment could not begin until he had the okay from Ike. So that is when the “clock†really started, and the fact still remains that no other army in WWII achieved such a rapid redeployment and attack as was achieved by the “inept†American GI in that battle.


“The term "citizen soldier" has more meaning than what a persons occupation was 12 months previously (pumping gas?). The unpleasant fact is that Russia accounted for 80% of all German losses in WW2â€

And how long had the war on the Eastern Front been going on before the Americans and British opened up the Western Front in Europe? And how many Russian and German troops faced each other during that period of time? Think that might influence the number of troops lost by the Germans against Russia vs. against America?

“and America's most useful contribution to victory was it's productivity, American made trucks are what allowed the Russians to mobilize their army and pursue the Germans.â€

True that American productivity was a major contribution to winning the war – that has however nothing directly to do with the efficacy of the ineffectiveness of the American fighting man.

“Again, my father fought bravely in Europe but the popular "facts" differ from the documented historical facts.â€

Funny, I’ve read a lot of history of WWII – first hand accounts as well as military history and historical overviews from authors from different countries – many with an Axe to grind – most do agree that especially early in the war the American soldier and their leaders were inexperienced and not as effective or disciplined as the Germans or British – but by the same token it is also recognized that the Americans quickly improved and by the end of the war were more than a match for any other soldiers on the planet. Those are historically documented facts and not unsupported opinion. The Italians disintegrated as an effective military force while the Americans improved. The Americans fought in and were central to winning both the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific, while providing crucial supplies to both the British and the Russians.
The historical record shows that the American soldiers were centrally involved in the vast majority of battles, (excluding those on the Eastern front), that lead to the defeat of Germany and Japan. History shows again that they won the vast majority of those battles. To suggest that the American fighting man was inept and/or ineffective compared to those he fought with or against is to suggest that victory after victory and ultimate victory went to the worst soldiers in WWII, excluding perhaps the Italians since the Americans were their equals. You can have all the “productivity†you want but if you can’t use it, you lose it to no effect. History is full of examples of superior cultures and armies that were swept into the dustbin of history after being destroyed by more effective soldiers on the ground.
Clearly the new American soldier or any new soldier for that matter was/is not a match for a battle hardened veteran. The point is that once they were tested they quickly showed that they did have what it took such that by the wars end they were clearly the superior soldier on the ground.
And none of this can answer the question, who is the better soldier the modern soldier or the WWII soldier.
__________________
 
The Germans advanced quite rapidly across France, but they were only fighting against the French and the BEF.

We also advanced pretty darn quickly across France, and we were playing against the varsity squad, and had to start from a small beachhead... ;) :D
 
As for the original question, the modern guys would win if all we are considering is hardware. The range advantage offered by the M1 is only an advantage in terms of energy on target when that target is hit. There is no reason to believe that the 1943-era troops would be more likely to be better marksmen. The myth that we were ever a "nation of riflemen" is one that just won't go away. The BAR was an inferior squad automatic weapon even in its day. Its lack of a quick-change barrel and 20-round magazine makes it notably lacking in any kind of sustained fire. It, like the tommy gun, was used mainly because it was what we had and it was already in production. Handguns don't matter. The 1943-era troops would have had nothing to compare to today's grenade launchers. Their rifle-grenades were nowhere near as "user friendly" and accurate as today's 40mm systems.
With regards to toughness, every generation likes to point at the next generation and launch into a "These Kids Today..." tirade. They were doing that in ancient Greece and Rome. There were tough people then, there are tough people now. The real question is are you one of them?
 
First off Patton is the greatest general of all time.

Second of all, an M1 is such a superior weapon to the mouse gun 16 that it IS a laughing matter.

End of story.
 
Oh, come on. You can't be foolish enough to believe that! If only 15% of us were shooting back at the japs we would have been slaughtered. "

Yes, I am that foolish. I have read that time and time again. I have seen it on TV documentaries. I have been told that by people that have been there and done that. I think one mistake that you are making is in thinking that the causilties of war are mostly taken by small arms fire. The fact is that for any given, modern war, most of the casilties are enflicted by bombs, artilliary, mortors, navel guns, missiles..................... The futher detached you are from the situation, the easier it is to pull the trigger. There is certainly an emotional component to this, but another reason is just the survival instinct. For example, if you are in a foxhole and taking fire, the natural instinct is to seek safety. At the time, the safest place is in the foxhole as low as you can get. This only makes sense. Appearently a minority of the participants choose to ignore this instinct and instead stand up and shoot back. However, if you are three miles away at an artilliary battery, not under fire, it isn't as big of a deal to fire away. It is also easier because you are detached from the results of your actions.
 
WWII v. Modern?

Everyone will find out soon since the Iraqi army is rated comparable in equiptment & training to WWII-vintage US forces.

I think we all know the answer to the above.

The combat effectiveness of the WWII soldier was earned in battle, each lesson learned by casualties recieved. It was a very long & painful education. Survivors got better.

Modern USGIs are better trained from the onset. There is better emphasis on tactics, coordination, communication and reducing combat casualties.
 
In studies made by the US Army Medical Corp of the WW2 combat soldier the following observations were reported:

1. With even a very minor wound, soldiers would remove themselves from combat even through they were still 100% combat effective.

2. It took the average (not all!) soldier 2 weeks to gain the skills to be a combat veteran. After 30 days (if they still survived) the combat soldier's desire to fight would decline to the point that he was increasingly ineffective in combat and was considered a poor influence on the new replacements. The cycle ran from scared, confident(hero). fatalistic(hero), rebellion(battle fatique).

These observations should not bring dishonor to anyone, they document that the human animal has limitations like we should already know.

Also, Patton wasn't the best General of the American Army of WW2 or any other war. Lucien Truscott was....do reserch about him before you disagree, he served under Patton and performed most of the deeds Patton took the credit for. A great many people have never heard of him (poor PR I guess) but a high percentage of WW2 scholars agree. If Patton had been in the German Army(he would have made a more colorful NAZI than Herman Goeing), he wouldn't have got past major in rank, and even then it would have been a reserve commission.

Besides the best commanding general in American history was either Lee, Sherman, or Longstreet, take your pick. IMHO
 
How about C-i-C in 1945, vs C-i-C in 2003? Who would win a war?

I think Truman will win... he would drop 2 nukes over present day New York city, while GWBush will be frantically trying to contact Harry S. in order to congratulate him for getting rid of Klintoon. :D
 
I feel that the deciding factor in armed combat is the ability for the individual soldier to think clearly, remain focused and to use terrain and armament to their advantage. - Regardless of technology.
Having said that, the experience of the troops can also play a huge role in deciding outcome of battles, especially if troop numbers are even and more so when at a numeric disadvantage.
 
"In studies made by the US Army Medical Corp of the WW2 combat soldier the following observations were reported:

1. With even a very minor wound, soldiers would remove themselves from combat even through they were still 100% combat effective.

2. It took the average (not all!) soldier 2 weeks to gain the skills to be a combat veteran. After 30 days (if they still survived) the combat soldier's desire to fight would decline to the point that he was increasingly ineffective in combat and was considered a poor influence on the new replacements. The cycle ran from scared, confident(hero). fatalistic(hero), rebellion(battle fatique).

These observations should not bring dishonor to anyone, they document that the human animal has limitations like we should already know."

I wouldn't dispute the essential truth of this - new soldiers often are more aggressive than the veterans. That does not correlate directly however to combat effectiveness. Outside of veterans that are dysfunctional - i.e. unwilling to carry out orders to advance - I would suggest that a veteran that is less aggressive and more savvy is a huge asset.

Is true combat effectiveness measured by how many enemies a given platoon kills or wounds? I would suggest that it is not. Since WWII the primary object of ground forces has been to take ground and to take the enemy out of the fight. A direct man to man assault which results in the direct infliction of casualties - of killed and wounded enemy is certainly one way to take ground and to take the enemy out of the fight, but it is not the best or the most efficient way.

Consider, a new officer leads a direct assault on an enemy position with new and aggressive soldiers under his command, they take the position and many enemy soldiers are killed and wounded, however many of the attacking soldiers are also killed or wounded and the officer is wounded. Ground has been taken, the enemy taken out of the fight, but at the cost of taking the attackers out of the fight also due to their casualties. A victory and one in which the aggressive troops themselves killed many enemy, but a costly victory.

Now imagine a group of veterans led by an experienced officer, instead of leading a direct attack, they first send out a scout to determine more exactly the enemies disposition, then instead of a direct assault using their infantry weapons, they decide to call in an air or artillery strike on the enemy positions, during this strike they also decide to use their automatic weapons to lay down a steady stream of fire on the enemy position to keep them further occupied and confused, next using the information they obtained from their scouting they take a little more time to skirt around the enemy position and set themselves up in a position that allows them to pour fire on the enemies flank. The enemy now realizing they have been flanked and that they have no way out, and taking heavy fire from all sides, decide to surrender. As a result, only one enemy is killed by direct fire from the attackers and two wounded. The attackers suffer one wounded. The position is taken, the enemy is as effectively taken out of the fight and the attackers are still an effective fighting force. Yet, by measures of aggressiveness and soldiers killing other soldiers with their infantry arms it did not display combat effectiveness.

Modern war and combat effectiveness is not best measured by numbers of enemy killed or wounded directly by the infantry, it is best measured by the ability to go where the enemy is not or is weakest, to find an opening, to break through and isolate the enemy, and to deprive him of the ability to effectively resist.
Veterans know how to do this better than green troops.
 
In a way you are correct Mack...The average german combatant had a ratio of 16-1, for every german loss they inflicted 16 Enemy losses:what: .....and they still lost. To defeat 100 german combatants it required on average 125 enemy combatants. When German units were over-run or destroyed they were not permitted to withdrawn from battle. They and other survivors were formed into ad hoc combat units and lead back into the fight. I wonder what the mental profile of the average german soldier of WW2 is? It had to be awesome!
Also the "modern " tactic of attacking the eneny where he ain't is not so new, Sherman said the same thing 140 years ago and it has been practiced since the stone age. BUT their are situations when the military forces cannot be avoided and must be met and destroyed. When the French took Moscow but did not destroy the Russian standing army (he wanted to) it caused his defeat. A highly motivated army (US Marines, Republican Guards ?) might need to be defeated in battle regardless of what important political target may have been captured. True combat effectiveness is measured by the soldier's DESIRE and ability to complete the mission.
 
telewinz,

Yes, and the German soldier inflicted a 3:1-4:1 casualty ratio on Yank troops throughout the war.

There's a very simple explanation fo that, though... ;)
 
As a result, only one enemy is killed by direct fire from the attackers and two wounded. The attackers suffer one wounded. The position is taken, the enemy is as effectively taken out of the fight and the attackers are still an effective fighting force.

Yeah, but the New York Times headlines will read... US inflicts large casualties, civilian massacre suspected.
 
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