WWII British auto-loading rifle - Does one exist?

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I was thinking about WWII rifles after I bought my M1 Carbine the other day - the americans started the war with the great Garand, the Soviets came up with the SVT, the Germans copied it, and the Japanese were even trying to reproduce Garands in 6.5 Jap (or the other major Japanese cartridge...).

The British had a great sub-machine gun, and the best LMG of the war (the Bren), but why didn't they develop an auto-loading rifle to replace the Enfield bolts (not to take anything away from the VERY high-quality Enfield bolt-action rifles)?

Was it lack of funding, or just a lack of desire to move away from the bolt-action?

 

[Sunray]

There were some attempts to make a semi-auto No. 1, but it didn't work. The Brits drastically reduced spending after W.W. I, so there was no money for a new rifle. The Hood was sunk because they never got around to funding the improvements to her armour. Plus a certain amount of distrust of the troopies. Even prior to W.W. II, the senior officers thought the troopies would waste ammo if they had a semi-auto. Same as they did prior to W.W. I. They were all preparing to fight the same way they had in the trenches. However, primarily it was a money issue.

 

[Jim Watson]

The British fooled with some autorifles,Vickers made some Thompson or Pedersen designs, but it was not apparent to anybody but us that a semiauto infantry rifle was a decisive weapon and they did not push the concept. After the war started, production capacity had to be left going with what they were set up for. The Jap Garand never amounted to anything and Soviet and Kraut autos went mostly to snipers and sharpshooters in relatively small numbers. Note that the Japs never did get completely converted from 6.5 to 7.7 while the Italians tried to go from 6.5 to 7.35 and gave up, converting most of the 7.35s back to 6.5. (Or to 8mm Mauser. Wouldn't you just love to be a German reservist with a Carcano 8mm?)

I think the British had all their rifle manufacturing capacity tied up in No 4s and no ability to change after the shooting started. And less need to than perhaps anybody else, they had a lot of Brens and Stens, and the fastest firing, largest capacity bolt action made.

 

[mr.trooper]

Tactics.

We adopted an autoloader because our tactics could capitalize on it.

Other countries relied more on their MGs, and thus an autoloader wasnt quite as important an issue for them.

 

[Tony Williams]

Curiously, there was a British-designed gas-operated self-loading rifle which saw limited service in WW1 : the Farquhar-Hill. This was first submitted for trials in 1908 but it was not looked on favourably at that time. It was further tested during the war and issued to some RNAS aircrew, complete with a 19-round drum magazine. Following further tests it was selected for mass production with an order placed for 100,000 rifles in May 1918 (as the "Rifle, .303 inch, Pattern 1918") but the war ended before any were delivered, so the whole project was cancelled.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[Cosmoline]

When Saive and his engineers fled the FN factory in Belgium, they ended up in the UK where they offered the Brits the chance to build one of the finest classic semiauto battle rifle ever--the SAFN. But at the time the British Army was not interested in giving soldier something that could waste so much ammunition, so they put the engineers to work on other projects. It wasn't until late in the war that they sarterd back on development of what became the FN-49.

It's an interesting "what if." Had the project been funded in 1940 they could have had a working SAFN style rifle by 1942, and the Brits could have fought the major battles in Europe with a rifle at least the equal of the Garand.

 

[DMK]

Speaking of FN...

When did they finally adopt the L1A1? It was after the Korean war even wasn't it? I've seen lots of pictures of Brits carrying No.4MkIs in Korea.

 

[Tony Williams]

Speaking of FN...

When did they finally adopt the L1A1? It was after the Korean war even wasn't it? I've seen lots of pictures of Brits carrying No.4MkIs in Korea.

From memory, around 1956. Definitely after the Korean War was over, anyway.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum