Top 10 Combat Rifles of All TIme

[lencac]

I think but not sure the STG 44 round was refered to as the 8mm Kurtz 7.92x45?

 

[elmerfudd]

7.92x33. I believe it was called the 8mm Kurz.

 

[Bad Penny 03]

"#4 - USA M1 Garand .30-06
Semi-Auto - 8 shot Stripper CLip 30 rds/minute..."

Enbloc clip, not a stripper clip amigo...

 

[lencac]

Isn't that what I said Yeah, Elmer I knew it was something like that. Note: the closest design relative to the STG44 is the modern HK91/G3 series. I wonder ballistically how that 8mm Kurz performed?

 

[navajo]

top 10

For those of you who left the M-14 off your personal list apparently you have never used one in combat. I have.

Longevity??
The Navy never gave it up.
It is currently used as a DMR and has always been around for special use missions.
Even that show called it the come back kid. But in fact, it never left.

My 2 cents.

 

[elmerfudd]

The 8mm Kurz was supposed to have ballistics very similar to the 7.62x39. The bullet was a bit lighter, a tiny bit wider and the velocity was slightly less and like the 7.62x39 it also had a very pronounced taper. Apparently this was done to help extraction using steel cases.

 

[hank327]

I would include the 1903 Springfield in with the Mauser 98 as it is clearly only a variant of that design. In fact, Mauser sued the US government for patent infringment and won. The US government had to pay up and get a licensing agreement from Mauser for the continued production of the 1903.

 

[jpwilly]

My next gun in a few years, if I can ever justify the gun and ammo prices to my sweet, domestic "Admin. Officer"/ "XO" (she has a graduate degree in music), will/would be either the M-14 or the FN FAL. It will undoubtedly require some clever persuasion.

Just sneak them into the house and pray for forgiveness!!!

 

[jeff-10]

I love how the Steyr Aug always makes that list. For a combat rifle wouldn't it had to have been used in combat? In a couple of peace keeping missions? Austrailians in Afganistan? Hardly on the level of the other rifles listed. If you are only listing rifles from the 20th and 21st centures then the L85(SA-80) has seen a lot more combat. Not to mention the Mosin Nagant or M14. I don't think the AR-180 should be on that list either.

 

[nwilliams]

The L85 was a real POS for most of it's existence. It's problems made our own early problems with the M16 look minor in comparison. Some time ago H&K rebuilt the entire British arsenal of L85's at a fairly substantial cost and since then I understand it has performed pretty well. Still, I think it would be hard to include it on a list of the best rifles of all time.

I certainly wouldn't include it among the best rifles of all time, but its been the primary British military rifle in one form or another since the early 80's. So I'm looking at it from a longevity viewpoint.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Note: the closest design relative to the STG44 is the modern HK91/G3 series. I wonder ballistically how that 8mm Kurz performed?

The HK roller lock designs like the G3 are based on the StG-45, not the StG-44. The former was still in development by the end of the war, and did not have much, if any, internal functions in common with the StG-44.

StG-44 probably has more in common with the Czech vz.58 and the SKS than the HK rifles.

I love how the Steyr Aug always makes that list. For a combat rifle wouldn't it had to have been used in combat? In a couple of peace keeping missions? Austrailians in Afganistan? Hardly on the level of the other rifles listed. If you are only listing rifles from the 20th and 21st centures then the L85(SA-80) has seen a lot more combat.

Yeah. The L85 and the FAMAS have both fired more shots in anger than the AUG, if I am not mistaken. I think the AUG only beat the FAMAS into adoption and fielding by a few months (and then only for the Austrian army at that point), maybe a year at most, with the L85 lagging some years behind the other two. None have had an especially notable or successful career in terms of export success.

If the bullpup idea is the reason for inclusion, the British EM-2 and a number of other experimental designs beat it to the punch decades before its adoption.

I'm guessing it just gets a nod for looking like a space gun.

 

[Lucky]

AR18 needs to be on the list. Look at how many modern western assault rifles are based exactly on it. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as36-e.htm

And the Federov was an assault rifle in WW1, which predates WW2.

 

[BamBam-31]

I would have put the M1 Garand at #2.

 

[lencac]

The law suit from Mauser over the Springfield was actually to do with the stripper clips, not the rifle itself.

Elmer interesting about the Kurz

Put 2 opposing enemy 600 yrds apart, one with an SKS or an AK and the other with an M14, guess who dies? Dah.

 

[Nolo]

My Top 10 Most Influential Infantry Weapons in Modern History

#10
-The M1886 Lebel Rifle
It was the first issue weapon to use smokeless powder. So that makes it kind of the father of all modern combat firearms.
#9
-The M1888 Mauser, with the IS cartridge.
Really, this is the cartridge, not the rifle that is being studied here. Spitzers were an incredible invention, and ushered in a new age of accuracy and velocity.
#8
-The M1 Carbine
The first weapon to really stress lightness as an important factor in a main infantry weapon, the M1 Carbine paved the way for the modern high capacity infantry rifles and carbines.
#7
-The Steyr AUG
The modularity of this system, as well as its introduction of polymer housings has influenced all of the current generation of weapons on the market.
#6
-The Sturmgewer 44
The father of all assault rifles, the Sturmgewer truly defined what it meant to be an assault rifle. There had been other rifles before that now qualify as assault rifles, but it was the Sturmgewer that created that type of weapon.
#5
-The Enfield EM-2
The British EM-2 was the first bullpup rifle to be adopted by any country, albiet briefly. It set the stage for nearly every European rifle from the '70s onward.
#4
-The AR-15
This rifle introduced a host of new features that have become standard for rifles of all nations. Upper and lower receivers have become commonplace, plastic is found in nearly every new weapon, and the high-velocity assault rifle cartridge is certainly the new norm.
#3
-The BAR
The first weapon to give fully automatic fire to the infantry squad, this weapon is largely responsible for the invention of the assault rifle, and it influenced nearly every design that followed it.
#2
-The H&K G11
Though this rifle didn't get past the pre-production stage, it advanced the technology of caseless ammunition, largely expected to be the new wave of smallarms technology, further than any other infantry weapon before or since.
#1
-The M1 Garand
The first semiautomatic weapon ever to be issued to an entire army, the Garand proved that semiautomatic weapons were rugged enough to be used by the common soldier. The Garand was the first basic-level infantry weapon to truly care about firepower, not just accuracy or punch. The Garand, with the BAR, ushered in the age of massed infantry firepower, the kind that would dominate battlefields to this very day.


WHAT!!!!???? NO AK!!!!????? BLASPHEMY!!!!!
Yes, I know. No AK. These are the most influential rifles, and, though I love the AK, it is really just a compilation of designs from other rifles.
Though you could certainly argue that it is the most influential just by sheer number of variants.
So it's either not on there, or it's number one.

 

[Ignition Override]

Nolo:

Maybe it's a coincidence, but Clyde (Bonnie and C.) Darrow 'found' a BAR and used it against police officers in the '30s. Did it fire the 30-06? If so, what made the BAR, knowing the heavy weight, so superior? It must have needed constant reloading if fired on automatic.

JPWilly:

Nice idea to sneak it inside, assuming no trade were possible, but without the ability to separate large bundles of cash over time from the ATM or see it fall from a Brink's/Wells Fargo truck on a rainy night (it happens), maybe not.

She is the "Squadron Admin./Maint/XO Officer" for everything.
And like in the old classic movie "Stalag 17", the mail person (i.e. all credit card bills). Don't most ladies understand that ammo is going up in price next year-the brass/copper situation-and this allows us happy shopping for 'designer (Remington) boxes' of extra Carbine etc ammo at Bass Pro Shop (and a fashionably bright, orange cap)? .

Bass Pro and Cabela's, where real men shop.
Women and their shoes-what a total waste of cash which could easily buy us a powerful new rifle! No kidding here, nope...not ooone bit. A bit chauvinistic with no apologies.

 

[Timthinker]

ElmerFudd, I started a thread on the MP 44 in October 2006. Some of the contributors discussed the performance of its 7.92x33mm round and stated it was slightly less than the 7.62x39mm Russian cartridge. You might wish to consult that thread for more information. I hope this helps.


Timthinker

 

[BigG]

How can you consider these militarily insignificant?

The British Empire had already imploded by the time the .303 Enfield was fielded and they have won no territory with it, unless you count territories ceded to them by the USA.

 

[daniel (australia)]

Nolo

#9
-The M1888 Mauser, with the IS cartridge.
Really, this is the cartridge, not the rifle that is being studied here. Spitzers were an incredible invention, and ushered in a new age of accuracy and velocity.

I assume that is a typo, because of course the spitzer bullet wasn’t introduced until 1905, for use in the Gew 98, not the earlier 1888 Commission rifle (which wasn’t even really a Mauser).

Interestingly the US Ordnance Department had trialled a sharp-pointed streamlined bullet as early as 1894. The development was dropped, but when DWM sued the US in 1909 for directly copying its S-bullet design for the .30/06 this fact was raised by the US in defending the matter.

#8
-The M1 Carbine
The first weapon to really stress lightness as an important factor in a main infantry weapon, the M1 Carbine paved the way for the modern high capacity infantry rifles and carbines.

It wasn’t intended as a main infantry weapon though, but as a replacement for handguns (and to a lesser extent SMGs), mainly for drivers, cooks and others not in front-line roles, with less training needed and rather better effectiveness than a handgun but far short of what was then considered necessary for a main infantry weapon. Lightness did make it popular though.

#5
-The Enfield EM-2
The British EM-2 was the first bullpup rifle to be adopted by any country, albiet briefly. It set the stage for nearly every European rifle from the '70s onward.

A victim of politics. The US insisted on their ammunition choice for NATO, and an incoming British Government caved to the pressure to keep the US happy.

#3
-The BAR
The first weapon to give fully automatic fire to the infantry squad, this weapon is largely responsible for the invention of the assault rifle, and it influenced nearly every design that followed it.

There were several “weapons to give fully automatic fire to the infantry squad before the BAR”. The Lewis was probably the most successful, and was introduced into service by the Belgians in 1914, and by the British and Commonwealth forces later that year, in precisely that role. It was issued in large numbers and proved reliable and effective in battle. It was even adopted by the US in .30/06, before the BAR finally entered service in September 1918 – a matter of weeks before the Great War ended. There were a few others too, like the Mondragon adopted by Mexico in 1908 and pressed into service by Germany in 1915, and the French Hotchkiss Mle 1909, also adopted by the British for cavalry service and by the US in 1909 as the Benet-Mercie.

There’s also the largely unlamented Chauchat which was, if nothing else, made in large numbers – indeed it was to some degree the predecessor of all the more modern guns where cheapness and simplicity are key design elements. Its reputation for unreliability was more a factor of poor conversion to .30/06, and the versions in the original 8mm seem to have performed well in fairly much precisely the role of the later BAR. Indeed the US adopted the BAR largely to emulate French “walking fire” doctrine developed using guns like the Chauchat.

#1
-The M1 Garand
The first semiautomatic weapon ever to be issued to an entire army, the Garand proved that semiautomatic weapons were rugged enough to be used by the common soldier. The Garand was the first basic-level infantry weapon to truly care about firepower, not just accuracy or punch. The Garand, with the BAR, ushered in the age of massed infantry firepower, the kind that would dominate battlefields to this very day.

These were a good rifle, that is for sure. The French had the same intention quite a bit earlier, and started a program to develop a self-loading rifle to replace the Lebel in 1909. WWI intervened of course, but the development program continued and eventually a gas-operated rifle in 8mm Lebel was adopted in 1917: the Mle 1917 RSC. This was indeed intended to be issued as the standard infantry rifle, and about 80,000 were issued before the war ended, though initially to the better-trained riflemen. There were some teething problems, but the idea showed a deal of promise. It seems to have fallen into a hole after the war though - perhaps not surprising in view of the economic and other devastation done to France.

 

[daniel (australia)]

The British Empire had already imploded by the time the .303 Enfield was fielded and they have won no territory with it, unless you count territories ceded to them by the USA.

That is a pretty silly argument, as well as being factually wrong.

The .303 was adopted in 1888, the Lee-Enfield version in 1895. At that time the British Empire covered nearly a quarter of the Earth's land area, and was growing. Lee Enfields were used in the Boer War of 1899-1902, at the end of which Britain had control of South Africa. By 1914 Britain had about 30% of the population of Africa under its control.

Following WWI, which seems to have involved rather a few Lee Enfields in the hands not only of British but of Indian, African, Canadian, New Zealand, and of course Australian soldiers, Britain took control of Palestine and Iraq (under League of Nations Mandate) and Tanganyka, and South Africa and Australia (also Lee-Enfield users) took control of South West Africa and New Guinea respectively.

And then during the Second World War of course quite a deal of territory was taken by soldiers armed with Lee Enfields. The US was involved too of course - eventually. Lee Enfields were also used by various countries' soldiers (ours included) alongside your blokes in Korea. They seem to have helped turn back the enemy.

It is a fatuous argument though: since when is a weapon's significance measured against the ebb and flow of empire? Might as well say the Mauser rifles were of no significance because the Germans were twice beaten, and the M16 a failure because the US hasn't expanded its possessions.

 

[BigG]

It is a fatuous argument though: since when is a weapon's significance measured against the ebb and flow of empire?

Hardly a fatuous argument, sir. It is the only measure for historically significant that has a reasonable basis. The expansion of empire is a real measure and it will be seen again, as it has time and again throughout history. I guess you are asserting the British were not already well in retreat from the duties of empire by 1914?

The .303 Enfield may have staved off the enemy, but they never won without some US involvement.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Put 2 opposing enemy 600 yrds apart, one with an SKS or an AK and the other with an M14, guess who dies? Dah.

On a manicured golf course, with both shooters wearing hunter orange vests and hats and standing still, I'd give the advantage to the M14.

In the real world, in camouflage or drab clothing and in real terrain, the odds of either shooter acquiring the other at 600 are low. The odds of a successful engagement are negligble. That was the great failure of the 7.62x51 battle rifles -- at the ranges where combat really happened, they did not bring much to the table that an AK or M16 could not do just as well. What pluses they did bring (barrier penetration for instance) came with significant minuses (small basic load of ammo), as well.

 

[HorseSoldier]

#3
-The BAR
The first weapon to give fully automatic fire to the infantry squad, this weapon is largely responsible for the invention of the assault rifle, and it influenced nearly every design that followed it.

Like daniel (austrlia) noted, the Chauchat would get that honor for American forces, among others. (Though I'm sure quite a few, if not all, troops handed the things would have much preferred getting a BAR had they been given the choice.)

 

[Nolo]

I assume that is a typo, because of course the spitzer bullet wasn’t introduced until 1905, for use in the Gew 98, not the earlier 1888 Commission rifle (which wasn’t even really a Mauser).

Interestingly the US Ordnance Department had trialled a sharp-pointed streamlined bullet as early as 1894. The development was dropped, but when DWM sued the US in 1909 for directly copying its S-bullet design for the .30/06 this fact was raised by the US in defending the matter.

Typo, yes, sorry. I meant 1898

It wasn’t intended as a main infantry weapon though, but as a replacement for handguns (and to a lesser extent SMGs), mainly for drivers, cooks and others not in front-line roles, with less training needed and rather better effectiveness than a handgun but far short of what was then considered necessary for a main infantry weapon. Lightness did make it popular though.

I never said main infantry weapon, just infantry weapon.
And it was produced in greater quantities than any other US weapon in the war, so I think it qualifies.

There were several “weapons to give fully automatic fire to the infantry squad before the BAR”. The Lewis was probably the most successful, and was introduced into service by the Belgians in 1914, and by the British and Commonwealth forces later that year, in precisely that role. It was issued in large numbers and proved reliable and effective in battle. It was even adopted by the US in .30/06, before the BAR finally entered service in September 1918 – a matter of weeks before the Great War ended. There were a few others too, like the Mondragon adopted by Mexico in 1908 and pressed into service by Germany in 1915, and the French Hotchkiss Mle 1909, also adopted by the British for cavalry service and by the US in 1909 as the Benet-Mercie.

There’s also the largely unlamented Chauchat which was, if nothing else, made in large numbers – indeed it was to some degree the predecessor of all the more modern guns where cheapness and simplicity are key design elements. Its reputation for unreliability was more a factor of poor conversion to .30/06, and the versions in the original 8mm seem to have performed well in fairly much precisely the role of the later BAR. Indeed the US adopted the BAR largely to emulate French “walking fire” doctrine developed using guns like the Chauchat.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. What I meant by that was that the BAR made the US realize that a light, low-tens capacity automatic weapon is a positive boon in modern warfare. Sure, the Chauchat and Lewis were really the first effective light machine guns, but it was the BAR that woke the US up to automatic fire, and it was the BAR that was directly responsible for the M14. Not to mention that that action has been copied the world over. And, yes, I realize that the BAR is not a light weapon, however, it is highly mobile for its role.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Sure, the Chauchat and Lewis were really the first effective light machine guns, but it was the BAR that woke the US up to automatic fire,

Lots of US troops carried and used the Chauchat in combat in WW1. It was a much less successful design than the BAR in many, many ways, but the BAR did not bring any capabilities to the table that a (functioning) Chauchat provided.