Top 10 Combat Rifles of All TIme

[lencac]

HorseSoldier, thanks for making my point. Sometimes you guys amaze me with the overanyalizing things that you miss the most enjoyable points being made. Does an AK or SKS spray bullets around like a herd of B-17s dropping bombs over Dresden ....... hell yes! You know the commie mentality .... 1000 shots one kill. M14 like a B2 Spirit installing one smart bomb, through one window, in one building ..... one shot one kill. So let me refrase the comment. 2 opposing enemy aquiring each other 600 yrds apart, one with an M14 and one with an AK. Guess who dies?
You can keep the commie bloc junk. Give me a good ole' high quality American made combat rifle any day. As if an M14 or M16 can't spray lead around with the best of em' ............ rubbish
Sorry, I can't help it if I'm American born and raised and son of an American WWII European combat veteran.
Like my Dad used to tell me "the Nazis had great stuff, they just didn't have enough of it".
Here's the real list:
#1 M1 Garand
#2 Springfield 1903
#3 Bar
#4 M14
#5 12 Ga. Trench gun
#6 Thompson Machine gun
#7 50 BMG M2
#8 Enfield M1917
#9 M1 Carbine
#10 M16
With those firearms you can conquer the world.
Oh yeah, I forgot .... we did conquer the world with em'

 

[Deer Hunter]

Lencac,

Rifles dont win a war. Supply, strategy, air strikes, artilary, and naval superiority win wars. An army armed with such "junk" as "commie guns" will win battles upon battles if said superiorities are met. They will do much, much better than an army equipped with our weapons without sound superiority in those areas.

 

[lencac]

Deer Hunter are you for real? My God dude get your panties out yor crack. If you like that garbage so much then just give me all your American stuff and go live with the commies. Gees dude get a grip. If I want the world as Deer Hunter sees it I'll take some pills. I went through that "stage" I had all that junk. Shot the bejesus out of it. IT'S NOT VERY GOOD. A group to them is hitting the side of a tank at 200 yrds. That stuff is cheaply made and it shoots like it. It's sold to a not very knowledgable American public with a sheep mentality. Same reason all these younger Americans are covered in tattoos. "if everybody else is doing it then it must be a good thing" When you grow up you stop buying Ripple and start getting good wine.
Those people are making billions of dollars from that junk and do you think they are going to spend it to help us? WAKE UP! GROW UP! Buy quality American firearms.

 

[TimboKhan]

WAKE UP! GROW UP! Buy quality American firearms.

Well, while Deerhunter is waking up, I need to point out that #2 on your list is. for all intents and purposes, a German design, #1 was designed by a Canadian and that the Enfield is British.

Also, my friend, you are the one who needs to wake/grow up, because Deerhunter is exactly right. The army that has the best logistical chain will win, period. The fanciest, best built American rifle in the world is a useless hunk of garbage if the rounds can't get to it. You can point out that the the AK isn't very good all you want, but the simple fact is that an army armed with AK's and a great supply chain is going to whip the hell out of an army armed with, literally, any other small arm you can think of and a crappy supply chain. I would also, respectfully, add that the AK has managed to kill plenty of our boys in the current war. I feel certain that they would argue the point that they are "not very good" with you if they could.

I would also point out that #1 on your list was produced to the tune of 6.3 million rifles as compared to 50 million AK's. Perhaps the Garand people will start dropping the AK people at 600 yards out (which, by the way, is a ridiculous argument since shots would only rarely be fired, with iron sights, in the middle of battle, at that distance), but I am pretty sure that the bulk of those additional 44 million AKers are going to make it through.

Finally, while they aren't my cup of tea, the FAL isn't an American gun, and it has proven itself many times over to be a dependable, reliable and accurate combat arm.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Lencac, I hope you are simply being facetious. If that is the case, I catch your sarcasm. If that is not the case, then I pray you have not procreated yet.

As far as "junk commie guns" goes, my .223 Saiga does a number on 200 and 300 yard gongs. It's got some great accuracy potential, and I can't wait to start seeing what kind of groups I can get with some quality ammo. Only shot the "junk" stuff out of it so far.

But I suppose it is simply junk. I think my FAL needs a hug, it's having a hard time dealing with it's inadequacy.

 

[hank327]

As stated earlier, small arms do not win wars. It's a combination of logistics, training, professionalism, and probably most important of all, the will to win.
If we were to rearm the US forces in Iraq and Afganistan with AKMs, I daresay we would still continue to kick the terrs rears whenever we made contact with them. As for the 600 yard face off between an M14 and an AKM, in combat you will rarely see, much less have the time to fire a shot at an opponent at that range. Most combat with small arms occurs well inside 200 meters. At that range, the commie stuff works just as well as anything.

 

[Roswell 1847]

I need to point out that #2 on your list is. for all intents and purposes, a German design, #1 was designed by a Canadian and that the Enfield is British.

Actually the Enfield No. 1 is an altered Remington Lee design, James Paris Lee being an American of Scots descent. The No. 4 is more radically altered version of the Lee design.

The Luger was based on designs by Hugo Borchardt, and American of possibly German Descent.

The Vickers and Spandau guns were simply updated Maxim guns designed by Hiram Maxim, again an American.
The Lewisgun was also designed by an American though almost always associated with the British.

The German MG34 was a Swiss design.

If I'm not mistaken John M Browning had already moved to Belgian when he designed most of his Automatic weapons, not sure if he held dual citizenship or not.

Some SKS rifles are not bad shooters, avoid the Chinese guns with pinned and pressed barrels.
AK Rifles don't impress me , but then again the AR Rifles have too often failed in combat for me to trust them.

When I find another Garand I like (and can afford of course), or have a fellow I know assemble one to my liking, that will be the rifle for me.

PS
As the soft receivers of many Chinese M14 Clones have shown, manufacturing expertise counts as much as design.

Perhaps the Garand people will start dropping the AK people at 600 yards out (which, by the way, is a ridiculous argument since shots would only rarely be fired, with iron sights, in the middle of battle, at that distance),

Hundreds of thousands of Chinese found out differently during the Korean War.

 

[Nolo]

Being nationalistic about America is retarded. America is everyone. It's not like being German, Japanese, English, or Irish. We're all of those things. Being American is a state of mind, a state of being. For all intents and purposes, I consider Mikhail Kalashnikov to be an American. Why? He fought for what he believed in, and when he couldn't he used his time to help his buddies on the front. He had an uncommon ingenuity, a sense of how things worked not seen since Browning. A Kalashnikov embodies what is American much more than the M14, a product of bureaucracy and stupid government requirements. Not to say the M14 isn't a good rifle, but it was dated since its inception.

 

[lencac]

Deer Hunter, now your getting it. All the stuff I post is half tongue in cheek. That's my point. Everybody is busy trying to show how much of an historian they are. Timbo simularly just as you liked to point out about the 03 I'll point out and ask, who was the designer of the FAL? Guys off with the iron clad logic. Enjoy the conversation about our common love of these old veterans. Who cares if you got the chain of command and the food chain, and supply chain,..... who cares. This thread is a popularity contest and those 10 are my favs .... hello ...... oh, and although the 1917 is a British design it was produced right here by such companies like Remington, Winchester, Eddystone .... you know American companies.
Oh, and the commies need 50 million of these pieces of junk cause they are still no match for smart bombs, Predator drones and the like. Why do you think they have nothing, cause their government would rather build 50 million pieces of junk than supply their population with the things that make society livable. My AR does not have "accuracy potential" ..... it IS accurate.
Put that stuff in your little iron clad logic pipe and smoke it
Love Ya

 

[Nolo]

I should make a point about the M14: I love its receiver. The way that the receiver is just the receiver and nothing else makes the weapon versatile. Just look at the new EBR stocks from Sage. Suddenly your old son of a Garand just became a space-age kick you in the pants light machine rifle. Eat that!

 

[lencac]

One big difference, Kalashnikov wasn't an American .... he was a Russian communist What next ... Stalin was just a misunderstood American?

 

[TimboKhan]

All the stuff I post is half tongue in cheek. That's my point. Everybody is busy trying to show how much of an historian they are

Well, speaking for me, I actually am a historian. UNC Class of 2007, baby. I will say that I am not a firearms historian, but still....

 

[Groovski]

Not to say the M14 isn't a good rifle, but it was dated since its inception.

That may be, but like the B-52, it keeps on serving.

 

[lencac]

Hey Tim how's things in Greeley used to go up there and Ft. Collins to hook-up with the little college gals when I was a youngin.
But still what? Is that like saying I have a doctorite in anthrapology so I must be qualified to do brain surgery

 

[TimboKhan]

Things in Greeley are great! Unfortunately for me, I was way older when I went back to college, so not much hooking up with the college gals. Trust me, being single and 35 years old and being surrounded by 22 year old girls sucks. My dating pool on campus was extremely limited (by which I mean it was practically non-existent).

As to your other question, it doesn't mean much. My area of expertise is in european history and education, along with a deep interest in military history. I only point out that I am a historian because, well, I am! I certainly am not an expert in this particular field of history, although I think it is fair to say that I am very well-versed in military history as a whole. I don't want to say "expert", because I don't think thats the case, but I also don't want to discount my education or my knowledge of military history as a whole. With that being said, I can definitively say that logistics = victory. As it happens, Americans are particularly good at logistical operations, and so we generally succeed where others fail. Now, there is something to be said about the quality of the supplies being delivered, but in the end, it all boils down to the three b's: Beans, Bullets, and bandaids. While the debate on the awesomeness of a particular military rifle will go on endlessly, the fact in this case is that 1 million AK's on the battlefield is better than 50 million M1's in a warehouse.

Thoughts you can chew on:

There is an old saying, that goes something like "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics".

While on the philsophical bend, Sun Tzu says that "In respect of the Art of War, we have: firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity; thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances; fifthly, Victory"

Basically, it is the thinking that you do before you go to war that wins wars. The tools of war, while important, pale in comparison to the planning necessary to achieve victory.

 

[TimboKhan]

Dupe

 

[Nolo]

One big difference, Kalashnikov wasn't an American .... he was a Russian communist What next ... Stalin was just a misunderstood American?

And I'm a Scots-Irish Libertarian, what difference does it make?
Ahhh... the only thing that says he isn't an American is a piece of paper. No, Stalin was not just a misunderstood American, he was against everything America stood for, just like a lot of American politicians I can think of.
My point is that American is not a race thing. It's a personal quality. It's accepting others, being innovative, caring about those around you, understanding reality and being willing to fight for freedom and for those back home. American is a virtue, it is not a nationality.

 

[dispatch55126]

Modern only?

One of the greatest of all times was the Brown Bess. A smoothbore 78 caliber flintlock that took the British to the empire it was.

Another was the Springfield of the Civil War. Short lived, yes. However, this rifle forever changed the way wars were fought.

 

[lencac]

Tim, very well said. You do know I am just pullin your chain But as I noted this thread is not about logistics ... it's a popularity contest. You saw my list. It means nothing. If I compiled a list of the firearms I have or have had it would be lengthy. And not a deer rifle in the bunch. With the exception of some very fine precision target rifles they are all military. You name it, I've most likely had it. I would get em, get dies and brass and wring em out for all they were worth. I've got much experience with communist, European and American military rifles. Had several Aks and SKSs, they do what they are designed to do very well but they are not tack drivers by any means and to me they have no astetic appeal. I've had some very fine firearms, if they wouldn't shoot a minute of angle for me I would get rid of em. Got to draw the line somewhere you know. Good old world craftsmanship and accuracy are the criteria by which I decide if I like a firearm or not. What I have found is that unless there is something wrong with the rifle the miltary firearms I find shoot the most accurate consistantly without a lot of coercing are M1903s, M14/M1As, M1 Garands, Ar15s, Ar10s, M1917s. I know there are others like Swede mausers. They are deadly accurate, I own 4, M96, M38, CG63 and a M41B sniper. But I'm still partial to American hardware. Anyway that's my story and I'm stickin to it.
Oh, now that you have a college degree and are "mature" by college girl standards use that to your advantage. They love it

 

[lencac]

Nolo, it's called language, culture and borders. Do you speak English? Are you a citizen of the United States of America? Do you reside within the borders of these unites states? The only native Americans are the ones the white folks slaughtered. We all have a heritage but we still have a desire to partake in the American way of life. So please spare me the bologna about Kalashnikov was an American at heart

 

[barman]

American is a virtue, it is not a nationality.

While that concept has an attractive universalist value, please allow a foreigner to quietly disagree with you.

In practice, people are not the same from one country to another. They don't even particularly long for these "universal" ideals of democracy, freedom and happiness.
I believe that people are the product of the environment in which they live in.
You're very rarely born somewhere out of chance.

By thinking that being an American is a virtue and not a nationality, you are thinking the way people in France and England did when they decided to create colonial empires. IMHO (I'm not trying to be aggressive), you are also being somewhat unrespectful of the sacrifices that so many people had to make in order to build the US of A.

Regarding the French colonial empire, it has to be said that while the primary interest was financial, there really was a desire to export our values which we thought were to be naturally adopted by everyone.

 

[barman]

dupe

 

[Nolo]

Nolo, it's called language, culture and borders. Do you speak English? Are you a citizen of the United States of America? Do you reside within the borders of these unites states? The only native Americans are the ones the white folks slaughtered. We all have a heritage but we still have a desire to partake in the American way of life. So please spare me the bologna about Kalashnikov was an American at heart

Then I guess all of our soldiers overseas that have English as a second language aren't Americans, huh?

While that concept has an attractive universalist value, please allow a foreigner to quietly disagree with you.

In practice, people are not the same from one country to another. They don't even particularly long for these "universal" ideals of democracy, freedom and happiness.
I believe that people are the product of the environment in which they live in.
You're very rarely born somewhere out of chance.

By thinking that being an American is a virtue and not a nationality, you are thinking the way people in France and England did when they decided to create colonial empires. IMHO (I'm not trying to be aggressive), you are also being somewhat unrespectful of the sacrifices that so many people had to make in order to build the US of A.

Regarding the French colonial empire, it has to be said that while the primary interest was financial, there really was a desire to export our values which we thought were to be naturally adopted by everyone.

My ancestors came off the boat in the late 1800s. As soon as they stepped off the boat, they were Americans. What separated them before? What changed? Being American is an abstract thing. You don't have to speak English or live here to be an American, I know several Amish in my area that exclusively speak German. American is an ideal, an ideal of freedom, of opportunity. Anyone who shares the same ideals as an American is, in my book, an American as well. I know an Austrian exchange student, for instance, who is extremely American. She acts like an American, talks like an American, and works hard like an American. She doesn't expect things to be handed out to her, she knows the value of an armed populace (though guns scare her personally) and she is highly tolerant of people with different views. Yet she is an Austrian, born and bred, with family going back in that country to infinity. Born there. Raised there. Lives there. Is she an American? If not, why?

 

[Timthinker]

If I am not mistaken, the TV program in question focused on 20th century rifles. Had the program focused upon military small arms since the invention of gunpowder, then the top ten list would have been different. No doubt, the Brown Bess musket would have made it onto the scale along with the matchlock musket. As a muzzleloading enthusiast, I could not resist references to "smokepoles".


Timthinker

 

[lencac]

You guys are amazing :banghead: