Yaqui Defense

[Imaginos]

I was browsing an old issue of Guns & Ammo, and I found a description of a shooting match called the "Yaqui Defense" that is supposed to be popular with Mexican LEOs.

The shooter stands 3 feet from a full size silhouette with an empty pistol in one hand. The slide is locked open over an empty magazine. Six loose rounds are held in the weak hand. At the start signal, the shooter drops one cartridge into the ejection port, hits the slide release, and fires the round into the target. The shooter has nine seconds to fire all six rounds.

Scoring was not described, but the author made reference to group size and speed.

This shooting game sounds like a good drill for all students of the bottom feeder to add to their bag of tricks. Your life may never depend on such a skill, but you never know what might come in handy in a tight spot.

It would be an absolute beast as a stage in an IDPA event. Maybe three targets at different ranges. Two rounds each.

 

[foghornl]

Interesting concept, but this drill cannot be done with ALL autoloaders.

F'rinstance, the manual that came with my new Springfield "GI Model" 1911-A1 specifically says NOT to single-load by dropping a round into the chamber, and then closing the slide. May cause accidental discharge.

Copy & paste from Springfield Armory website:

Safety Bulletin
Warning: Improperly loading the 1911 by manually inserting a round in the chamber may cause accidental discharge. Always load the pistol using the magazine. When loading the pistol, always point the muzzle in a safe direction.

 

[FPrice]

Imaginos...

"This shooting game sounds like a good drill for all students of the bottom feeder to add to their bag of tricks."

It sounds like a bad idea because it is potentially bad for your extractor. The feeding process in most auto-loaders is that the round slips up from the magazine to the chamber at some angle, allowing the rim to slide up into the extractor hook. Dropping the slide onto a chambered round causes the extractor hook to hit the rim with some force, then being forced over the rim to grab it. Eventually you will damage your extractor, probably breaking it.

But, if you press the round into the magazine, allowing the round to feed normally, it makes a little more sense. IF that's what the article meant to say.

 

[Imaginos]

Feeding the Round

The article was quite specific about dropping the round into the ejection port and letting the slide close to chamber the round.

As I understand it, the idea of the game is that you have shot your gun dry and are forced to stay in the fight the hard way because you don't have the time/option to reload normally.

I suppose it could be tough on the extractor, but I have never come across a specific warning against it in the manual for my Ruger P90 or the old US Army Field Manual I had when I had my first 1911 back in the 80's. I'll check it again.

 

[Old Fuff]

I am aware of the drill …

I think it’s one of those things that present a solution to a very unlikely problem. During a confrontation it is unlikely you will have shot the gun dry while having a single round handy “in hand†to drop into the chamber. In the most likely circumstances you would have to fish around in your pocket with the weak hand to find a loose cartridge. Then you’d have to pull it out, be sure the nose was pointed forward, drop it into the ejection port, and release the slide. All of this would get you one shot at best. If the person was properly trained and practiced they could eject the empty magazine, insert a loaded one, and release the slide to chamber the first of seven rounds (or whatever) in about the same amount of time.

And FPrice is right. Dropping the slide on a chambered round is hard on the extractor. The cartridge rim is supposed to feed up from under the extractor, and the extractor is not supposed to snap over the rim. While releasing the slide on a chambered round probably wouldn’t hurt in a fight (something that is highly unlikely to happen), practicing the drill over time could result in a broken extractor.

 

[Bwana John]

I could see how one might end up with only a loose round in the heat of a gunfight (cleared jam, double charging under pressure, ect). This is one of the reason I dont like mag disconects, because you cant use the gun without the mag. I dont practice this method because of the flexing of the extractor on a M1911, but do like the option to throw a round in the chamber and shoot.
The extractor design on a 1911 is one of the small things that proves that J.M. Browning was mortal.
S&W fixed the problem on their current version.

 

[deputy tom]

Good way to bend the extractor.Leave it to "guns -n-blammo" to print an article like that.tom.

 

[waktasz]

The only gun I know of that is designed to do this without hurting the extractor is the Beretta 92 series. I'd prefer carrying an extra mag rather than learning this technique. When are you really going to have to use it?

 

[1911Tuner]

Good thread, with many true observations made. Clearly the most important one is that the controlled-feed system is designed and intended to cam the round under the hook rather than snap over it...particularly with the 1911's
internal extractor.

A few important points have been overlooked, however. Study the 1911's internal extractor...as it was originally designed. Note for the record that
it should be made of 1090 spring-tempered steel. Also consider the
angled nose. That's a camming surface. Careful study of a design will very often reveal the intent of the designer if one keeps an open mind.

The spring-tempered specification had a couple of reasons...one of which was that the extractor be its own spring so that it would allow the feeding round to cam it open and hold tension on it until the ejector kicked it clear of the port. Common knowledge.

Not so common was that Browning the Immortal understood that the gun may require, in dire emergencies, single-round loading...as a last-ditch, lifesaving
effort when there was no magazine available. enter the camming angle on the nose that would allow the hook to snap over the rim of a chambered round without overstressing or "bending" the extractor...and either breaking it or rendering it unable to feed from the magazine.

Before the howls of protest rise....remember what the gun was designed and intended FOR. John Browning is known for his redundancies in his designs...
backup systems if you will. The extractor is no different. He was well aware
of the possibility of a pressing need for single-loading in an emergency, the same way that the brothers Mauser knew that the controlled-feed system
on their rifles may need an override switch at some point....hence the
spring-steel claw extractor. It also allowed for the addition of the magazine cut-off that provided shoot one, load one while holding the magazine in reserve. If John Garand could have worked out a similar system, the Garand
might well still be with us..or at least the M-14.

The problem with many modern-day extractors is that they're a little too tough to allow it, unless tension is low to begin with. The angle on the nose is there, but the steel is just too rigid to do that particular trick unless the extractor is modified...which it can be, and should be, IMHO.

Repeatedly dropping the slide on a chambered round is hard on extractors, and will lead to premature failure...even a 1090 spring steel extractor. the
practice isn't as hard on external designs, but still not good for them, and should only be done in an emergency...not for practice drills. If I felt a need to practice that drill, I think that a "range" extractor would be a good idea...
and swap it back out with the carry extractor for serious social purpose.
Another reason that the internal extractor really is a better idea.

Cheers all!

Tuner

 

[Imaginos]

Down on the Border

This has turned out to be an interesting topic. I would not play this game with anything but a gun I used exclusively for competition simply because I would not want the additional wear on my carry piece.

The description of the Yaqui Defense was found in the "Down on the Border" column, and it is supposed to be a very popular shooting game with Mexican LEOs. The game is played at BBQ's, annual qualification, and other social events. Nothing was said about whether the guns involved were duty weapons or special guns used for competition only.

Supposedly they love fancy 1911 pattern weapons in .38 Super. (They cannot own 45 ACP because it is a considered "military only" round.)

I didn't include this detail in my original post because I wanted to get some input on the concept without collecting a bunch of disparaging comments on the possible genetic ancestry of Mexican LEOs.

 

[FPrice]

Well, I tried this last night.

But before anyone starts yammering about safety and broken extractors, let me clarify. I used my oldest M1927 Argentine Sistema (the one that needs some work) and an orange plastic dummy .45ACP round. I have much curiousity but hopefully few stupids.

First I confirmed that contrary to what I ended my first post with, you cannot insert the round into the magazine when it is seated in the pistol. The magazine lips get in the way. This should have been obvious with just a few moments thought.

Secondly, my pistol did chamber the dummy round and I could pull the trigger, so this technique might work in an emergency situation. However it would not extract the round with hand cycling the slide. This might be due to the fact that I used a plastic round. I'd have to try a live round to check, but I am not willing to do that...yet. The round did end up with dark smears where I believe the extractor hit the rim as the slide went forward.

As a choice between being shot with an empty gun in my hand and trying this technique, I'd try it. But I am not sure just how far I'd want to go in practising this.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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As I understand it, the idea of the game is that you have shot your gun dry and are forced to stay in the fight the hard way because you don't have the time/option to reload normally.
-------------------------------

The question is, where are you getting those loose rounds? All the ammo I carry is loaded in magazines.

Now, you MIGHT have a stoppage, and in the process of clearing it you MIGHT eject a single round and you MIGHT somehow hang onto it until you had shot all your other ammo -- but I can't imagine this happening six times in the course of a single fight.

There are a lot of silly shooting games -- the modern Olympic competitions come to mind -- where totally impractical weapons and situations form the basis of the competition. This appears such a game.