"Yer reloading your gun wrong!" the guy at the range said...

[NCPatrolAR]

No disrespect intended but how many of these combat vets cleared stoppages during a gunfight?

Several

 

[Demitrios]

For what it's worth bro, I'm 28 and I get a LOT of flack as well, for various things. The fact is if someone has something to say, chances are that somewhere along their life, or someone elses life, it's been beneficial so they quote it as law. Now they're usually not malicious people, even if their demeanor suggests otherwise, because they are telling you something to benefit you. . . . or sometimes to just hear themselves talk, you have to be the judge of that. What I do is I take their advice, decide if there could be any merit to it and if I do I try it out for me and if it works I keep doing it and if not I go along my merry way. If they come back for more I politely tell them I tried and it wasn't for me and if they give me a hard time I simply ignore them from that point on.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

^But what about pistols, like my Kahr PM9, that REQUIRE you to use the slide release to ensure proper function. You don't recommend compromising reliability like the fella above just to have a universality of motor skills/muscle memory do you?

I recommend you pick your weapon, training, and method of carry to fit what you think is best after doing your own research. I've done my own research. I've read the books and statistics on this sort of thing, and received instruction from people who recommend it, and their reasons make sense. And I have altered my preferred weapon, preferred holster, and other things to be more conducive to what I have decided give me the best advantage I can. I'm not here to say anyone is "wrong" as I explicitly stated in my first post. I'm simply point out there there is documented medical data regarding heart rates, adrenaline, and how they effect your muscles under stress. Muscles that you use to operate your weapon under stress. You can decide to do with it what you will.

 

[mljdeckard]

You are doing fine. You know how to do it both ways. It isn't WRONG to use the slide-stop to do it, or there wouldn't be a rough surface for you to push on it. There's no good reason not to practice knowing how to do it BOTH ways. You said you practice both ways, so I don't see a problem.

The main reason it's a good idea to condition yourself to the idea of not using the slide stop is that if you do a combat pickup of a gun you aren't familiar with, you don't know that the slide stop works as well as yours. Now that I think about it, most of the time I use the slide stop when I reload, and I slingshot when I do malfunction drills. I use the weak-hand thumb to drop the slide from the firing position, I don't shift the firing-hand thumb, and I have never wanted an extended slide-stop.

 

[Enachos]

I use my slide stop and my gun works flawlessly... period

 

[NMGonzo]

My range requires that the gun operators be pointing the guns up or downrange.

I can get my speedloader really quick in there, but I would be pointing straight down for that.

So I patiently load one by one.

So far no one has given me any "sh-advice" for that.

 

[Balog]

Ragnar: 1. Hyperbole. 2. You realize we do it the same way, just for different reasons right? 3. Your method (and mine fwiw) will always be slower, slide stop may be slower. But will a slower version of a fster method not be close to the same speed as the method that's slower to start with? 4. I have no dog in this fight, both are acceptable methods to me. What I object to is people pushing their method as holy writ. And that's aimed more at the guy who deliberately induces malfs in his carry gun, not you.

 

[Nuke8401]

Gosh, I wonder why they make those "extended" slide release (lock) lever thingies if you are not supposed to use them?

Glock 34s/35s come stock with them and I believe they are options on other Glocks and many other guns.

I guess they are for looks and not meant to be used.

As for the advice to "stick with what you are currently doing"

I guess that’s good advice for those who never want to improve at anything they do.

 

[Blakenzy]

This is pretty much the only solid, undisputable reason to advocate the overhand technique over other methods:

jfdavis58: It's a method directly in-line with malfunction correction techniques shown by Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch---one can safely assume it has some proven validity (other than just the word of an internet junkie).

..and that's only if you subscribe to those malfunction correction techniques in the first place.

As far as the notion of it being easier under stress I agree with jscott:

I hear the argument of fine/gross motor skills all the time. While there is definitely merit to the topic and I incorporate such into my teaching, I would argue that it doesn't hold much water here. If you don't have the "fine" motor skills necessary to manipulate the slide release (call it what you want, it serves multiple functions) than exactly how did you find and manipulate the even smaller round magazine release? For that matter, how did you obtain and insert the spare magazine into a magazine well the exact size of the magazine?

And whether or not it damages the gun... I have yet to see or be reliably informed of a case of this happening in a stock gun of reputable manufacture.

 

[wrc]

Wow. All I can add is...I have several different autoloading pistols. Some have slide releases that work well, some have slide releases that seem at times to be for "cosmetic purposes only", and at least one one has an internal slide stop with no external release.

Slingshotting the slide works on all of them.

When you consider that the same slingshot action is required for the 'rack' in tap-rack-bang, I don't see the benefit to gaming the system. 10ms added on consistently is easier to deal with than 500ms of fumbling added on randomly at the whim of carbon buildup and thumb position.

If you have guns that all work the same way, then by all means practice that way. I have a whole zoo of pistols, so I practice my way.

Good Luck, Best Wishes!

 

[sidheshooter]

May as well weigh in on the party!

#1) I'm glad you were polite, and then did what you think is correct.

#2) One of my teachers (Mas Ayoob) taught the slide lock release

#) My current teacher will yell at the shooter if he/she uses either the release or the slingshot method; he's with Clint Smith on the over the top thumb index the shoulder way. (see again, post #4).

So who's correct?

Case-by-case. Good luck figuring it out.

(I'm training the Clint Smith way, just to say I can do it... may end up sticking to it down the road though).

 

[MrCleanOK]

Why does the slide go rearward past the locking point??

That over travel accounts for rounds of varying power, and keeps the slide from battering the crap out of the frame.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Using the slide stop/release/whatever you want to call it is fine. Using an overhand grip to rack the slide is fine. Hooking the rear sight on your belt to rack the slide is fine.

I will say that I've seen more shooters (including pretty experienced shooters) induce malfunctions by trying to rack the slide during a slidelock reload than by using the slide/bolt/stop/release/whatevermajigleverthing.

You'll be faster by using the stop. I've trained for years to reach over & rack the slide & I'm pretty fast all in all, but I'm still consistently & measurably faster hitting the slide stop. Even if you miss the first time you'll still be faster if you hit it on attempt #2 or 3 assuming you don't just stand there & look at your gun first like some zombie trying to figure out how to crack open his first skull full of tasty tasty brains.

You should train both & know how to use both, but have your preferred method that you use the most.

If your weapon is equipped with a slide stop & using it to release the slide induces a malfunction you're either lacking in lube or the gun is not functioning properly. Racking overhand, while a solution to the immediate symptom (failure to go into battery) is not the solution to the underlying problem (lube or faulty weapon).

We can play what-if games until the cows come home & end up in Little Billy's stomach at McDonald's but in the end, neither is so blatantly correct that the other is wrong.

 

[Balog]

Even if you miss the first time you'll still be faster if you hit it on attempt #2 or 3 assuming you don't just stand there & look at your gun first like some zombie trying to figure out how to crack open his first skull full of tasty tasty brains.

 

[Cornbred]

I'll throw my 2 cents in on this one. I agree they both work. As for which one is better, it depends what you train.

I agree that there is a lot that happens to you when you are involved in a shooting or combat. This isn't just physically but mentally as well.

Physically, the only way to combat the negative effects is training, not target practice, but real training. I incorporate numerous drills into my training. I implement stress drills, stress drill competitions (gets the heart rate up and gets a little adrenalin from the competition), I put dummy rounds in my magazines to simulate a malfunction, I train aggressively, even when i am working on my marksmanship fundamentals (bulls-eye shooting) I maintain the aggression scanning for targets never holstering with an empty weapon, I use simunition training a lot. I could go on and on but I hope ya get the idea. Oh almost forgot but physical training (exercise). Not a stud but in decent shape helps a lot.

Mentally, again goes back to training. You have to be mentally stable in the first place. If your weak minded your probably screwed from the get go. Simple things such using a picture targets (putting a face on the target), not just shooting the bulls-eye targets. Simunition training also good...those things hurt like heck and your shooting at a real live human being. All the drills that you do building confidence in your training and abilities. Mentally going thru what you would do in situations.

These are the some of the many tools in my tool box that have allowed me to continue to function when the crap hit the fan and allowed me to come home. Note: this won't eliminate the effects, nothing ever will.

As for the folks who say I trained with instructor x and he/she says you need to do it this way and he/she is the greatest. I will only train his/her way. I say you are nuts. I suggest taking someone's advice try it out...if it works for you, put it in your tool box. If it don't discard it.

Long story short your body and mind will revert back to the way you train. Kinda like a case study I read a long time ago of an LEO who was trained to drop to a knee and raise his hand if he had a malfunction. Guess what when he was involved in a gunfight and had a malfunction.

Sorry for the Rambling Rant

 

[McCall911]

You see, I often reload my guns by thumbing the slide release. Sometimes I'll slingshot the gun, but all my guns have a slide release in the same place, and I've trained to do it that way, and reloading with the slide release eliminates the possibility of coaxing the slide forward and causing a malfunction.

Well, I'll soon be 58 years old and a longtime shooter, and I've been doing it your way all along. I haven't broken one yet.
As someone who's been married for a long time AND had a Jewish mother, I've found you have to learn to let some things, including advice, go in one ear and out the other.

 

[1911Tuner]

The slide lock lever or slide stop lever is not meant to simply be released in that manner.

Sure it was. That's why it had checkering or serrations on the pad since the first working prototypes appeared in 1910. If it was never meant to be used to release the slide, the thumb pad would have been milled flat in order to discourage the practice. But it's got a nice little non-slip shelf so the user's thumb won't readily slip off.

Sheared the lever right off

When the various manufacturers of the gun decided to implement near-steel for small parts...made from recycled chewing gum wrappers for all we know...anything is subject to happen.

Using the slidestop to release the slide is both faster and less fumble-prone than overhand or slingshot...but ya gotta know how.

 

[1911Tuner]

actually, a "Speed Reload" is the standard IPSC competition reload where you jettison the mag as it begins to run low -- but NOT empty

Exactly. A locked, empty weapon is a stoppage, no matter how your cut it.

What about for an AR? Do you guys press the bolt catch, or do you pull the charging handle all the way back in order to "slingshot" it?

Neither. I slap the butt sharply after inserting a fresh magazine.

Refer back to:

"A locked, empty weapon is a stoppage."

 

[possum]

i don't use a slide release/ stop when i reload, however i would never say anything to you at the range if i saw you doing it. now if you came up to me and asked then we could talk but other than that i leave everyone alone.

 

[Mp7]

ear in .... ear out.

 

[Slamfire]

What about for an AR? Do you guys press the bolt catch, or do you pull the charging handle all the way back in order to "slingshot" it?

Combat vets that I have talked to, they press the bolt release.

I am a Highpower Competitor. Most shooters reach over their rifle and trip the bolt release. A few match rifle shooters have extended releases, they stick their fingers through the trigger to push on these. If they have an accidental discharge, by bumping the trigger, they will have committed a safety violation and will drop ten points.

I have a space gun with a tall rear sight. My coat sleeve will catch on this sight when reaching over for the bolt release, so I went the sling shot method. It is very positive and foolproof.

Your rifle is also pointed downrange. I saw one competitor, he would load standing by holding the rifle up to his face parallel to the firing line. He would then drop a round in the port and reach over and hit the bolt release. I thought this was dangerous.

When shooting standing, single shot, I can lower the bolt half way and let go of the charging handle. I had one in battery slamfire dropping the round and hitting the bolt release. Same day, second relay, the shooter on my firing point also had an in battery slamfire. I decided to change my reloading technique to reduce that probability.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Balog wites:

How many stoppages have you cleared during gunfights Shawn?

None involving actual bullets, thankfully. A few during FoF training with Glock 19s modified to fire Simunition FX.

NCPatrolAR writes:

Several

Stoppages during actual balls to the wall handgun fights with bad guys? Private citizen, law enforcement and/or military instructors? (Must be an awful lot of unreliable handguns out there.) What kinds of stoppages? What immediate action techniques worked and what didn't?

 

[NCPatrolAR]

Stoppages during actual balls to the wall handgun fights with bad guys? Private citizen, law enforcement and/or military instructors? (Must be an awful lot of unreliable handguns out there.) What kinds of stoppages? What immediate action techniques worked and what didn't?

I didnt realize we had changed the topic to exclusively handgun use. Anyways,yes; the material they teach has been pressured tested by them and their team mates during actual gun fights.

 

[TonyDedo]

I see a lot of good reasons to use the slingshot method, and virtually no good reasons not to, so that's the method I use. But I wouldn't go over and stop a guy in the middle of shooting and tell him he's doing it wrong. I save that for Rules violations and really hot chicks.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I didnt realize we had changed the topic to exclusively handgun use.

That's the context of the OP's firearm - a 1911.

Seat, Roll & Rack leverages commonality of technique so that one set of common actions is consistently performed to intuitively solve multiple problems. It is a technique that is blind to the position of the slide. Every time you Seat the magazine you immediately Roll & Rack to make the pistol battle ready. It is KISS simple:

Seat, Roll & Rack to load
Seat, Roll & Rack to clear a misfire (empty chamber, faulty cartridge)
Seat, Roll & Rack to clear a failure to feed
Seat, Roll & Rack to clear a failure to eject
Seat, Roll & Rack to complete a combat reload
Seat, Roll & Rack to complete a combat reload after clearing a doublefeed

Whereas the technique of manually releasing the slide lock to load introduces inconsistency, it is less fluid and less intuitive:

Seat & Release slide lock to load
Seat, Roll & Rack to clear a misfire (empty chamber, faulty cartridge)
Seat, Roll & Rack to clear a failure to feed
Seat, Roll & Rack to clear a failure to eject
Seat & Release slide lock to complete a combat reload*
Seat, Roll & Rack to complete a combat reload after clearing a doublefeed**

*Potential problem: if slide unexpectedly goes into battery when magazine is seated the shooter will most likely hesitate with indecision (e.g., Uhh, did I inadvertently release the slide lock? Uhh, did a round chamber? Uhh, do I engage the target? Uhh, do I rack the slide?)

** Potential problem: loading is the most frequent action performed by a shooter and the familiarity of “releasing the slide lock to load” might condition the shooter to automatically “release the slide lock” after seating the magazine (wasted motion, more decision-making) instead of intuitively racking slide to immediately load the chamber

I believe that Seat, Roll & Rack is more likely to condition a shooter to quickly and consistently produce a successful outcome under stress than Seat & Release.

I save that for Rules violations and really hot chicks.

A really hot chick "doing it wrong"?! Is THAT possible?

Cheers!