Yes, it WAS assault and battery, but would YOU have drawn?

[Yoda]

One good training technique is to visualize yourself in different situations and evaluate how you think you should react, so if you face similar situations in real life, your reactions aren't delayed or misdirected.

Here's one actual, real-life event, of a type that seems to be increasing in frequency, that can be used to think through "what if would I have done?" in a similar situation:

A man is standing in line for a "Black Friday" sale. Someone cuts in front of him. The first man tells the line-cutter to get out. The line-cutter punches him in the face. The first man draws his concealed gun. The line-cutter stops his attack and withdraws. No shots were fired.

The police noted the first man had a valid CCW and declined to press charges.

Here's the link: http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/weird/NA...y-Shopper-for-Cutting-in-Line--180586131.html

For myself, I don't think I would have seen a single punch in the face as a lethal threat, and if the line-cutter stopped after one or two punches, I think I would have tried to keep my responses limited to non-lethal means. Of course, if the assault turned into a sustained attack, this old man probably would have had to call on Mr Smith for help.

So, what would YOU have done?

- - - Yoda

 

[xXxplosive]

Guess that refrigerator got real small after he saw the hand gun....IMO, no excuse for any violent attack on anyone......if you go that route then you pay the toll.

 

[OARNGESI]

The man did the right thing BETTER TO DRAW TO EARLY THAN TOO LATE

 

[bigfatdave]

[video won't play on this machine - so I'm going off of principle here]

If someone has already punched you, it may be too late to draw and aim
And there's probably more black-friday idiots behind the clown
And chances are that the threat is marginal

Chances are that I, in my physical condition, with my general mindset, in the situation described, would not draw. I probably would keep the idiot from punching me again, with a decisive and immediate action. Then again, I'm not prone to panic after taking a punch, and am surprisingly quick for someone my size ... just grabbing some idiot assualting me with bare hands and ejecting him from my personal space is an option.
(as is restraining the idiot or bouncing him off of something until he's not a threat, but simple ejection will generally do the job)

===

I may revise this or add to it when I can view the video, but in general principle you're better off stopping someone from punching you than you are waving about a heater. That being said, producing a firearm for defensive purposes but not needing to use it counts as a win in my book.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

A punch in the face might just take me out. Supposed there's a roll of quarters in his hand? I think drawing the pistol was fair and depending on the circumstances possibly too late.

It might have been better handled by deescalating and avoiding the punch in the face. "Don't be there."

On a side note the gadget does not exist that I will stay up all night standing in line for like some poor starving soul looking for soup or bread to save a few dollars. It will be on sale in the next 30 days and obsolete 30 days after that. We have been brainwashed as to what we really need.

 

[Losov]

Knowing that I'm carrying a deadly weapon, I most likely would not have challenged the line cutter. The knowledge that I can counter a potentially lethal attack is worth a little disrespect. It makes me less likely to initiate any kind of confrontation.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Unfortunately, you don't get a glimpse into the future letting you know "This one is just 1 punch, you don't need to draw" or "He's gonna kick your skull in while you're down, you'd better draw". It sure would be nice to know before a fight or attack occurs whether your attacker plans on stopping or not. But we don't get those warnings. So when you're on the ground, head spinning, bleeding, confused and startled, you'd better be preparing for the worst. No one says you have to actually shoot but withdrawing and creating space while drawing your weapon is a pretty prudent thing to do. And it worked in this case. We don't know what the line cutter intended. But all he was able to do in reality was land 1 punch, because the victim stopped the altercation. No shots, no more hits, everyone lived and walked away.


You are physically capable of drawing without actually shooting someone. If the situation calls for doing that, by all means do it.

 

[locnload]

I agree whole heartedly with LOSOV. Like John Farnam say's, "don't do stupid things,don't goto stupid places, and don't hang out with stupid people". In my mind, "Black Friday" violates all three of those rules. :banghead:

 

[gp911]

I may not have drawn because I'd be more inclined to hit back, but if there was an obvious difference in size/ferocity I most likely would have. It turned out for the best in this case. Just a shame somebody felt they could get away with a jerk move like that. I'm glad the tables were turned on that guy.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

He would not have been justified had he shot his handgun. Only drawing but not shooting is a gray area. I generally err on the side of only use it in extreme situations. Was there a way he could have deescalated the situation? I believe he could have by not reacting to the guy's impatient behavior. I agree that black Friday events are a magnet for trouble. Anytime you combine greed, stress, and sleep deprivation, you are in for trouble. You can usually find similar deals online and avoid the stampeding crowds.

 

[GEM]

That mall is not in the best part of town. It has quite a lot of criminal shootings.

I regard challenging the man as foolish. If security was around, they could be told. In that area, it is quite possible that your opponent has a gun and/or a knife. We don't need a gun fight in a crowd.

The TX chl class specifically argues against starting unnecessary conflict, esp. when you are armed.

The line cutter was rude and was a real risk for violence. Challenging might save you 5 seconds of entry time. What was the chances that this guy was going to buy the last of some item you wanted?

I wouldn't have gotten into the fight to answer the OP.

A stray shot into a crowd for a sale? No.

 

[Fotno]

I agree whole heartedly with LOSOV. Like John Farnam say's, "don't do stupid things,don't goto stupid places, and don't hang out with stupid people". In my mind, "Black Friday" violates all three of those rules. :banghead:

I couldn't agree more.

 

[smalls]

I for one am not going to let people walk over me, armed or not. I would have said something, too. BUT, I wouldn't have been confrontational about it. Maybe an "excuse me, sir", or something.

I know from experience that "just one punch" can be life threatening. I'm not waiting around for the second one.

 

[r1derbike]

The best defense (as pointed earlier) would to have not been there in the first place. Shop online. LEOs at these retail feeding frenzies should be warning enough to stay away. Some degenerate subculture types seem to ruin the fun for everyone (or at least one, in this case).

 

[mljdeckard]

It's difficult to say it you weren't there. No, I won't say that ANYONE who punches me needs to be threatened with deadly force. Their size and demeanor will make the decision.

 

[Kleanbore]

Two things:

Avoidance of the situation is the best preventive strategy. We shop on-line and on television.

And very importantly, the conditions under which the presentation of a weapon may be lawfully justified vary widely among jurisdictions. What would be excused in Texas or Minnesota, or perhaps in Washington, might not be excused in Florida or Kansas.

 

[Onward Allusion]

I agree that the Three S Rule applies here. The man was perfectly within his right to draw. Gawd help him though if he would have shot the guy. There would be a media frenzy and he would be the bait.

I personally try to keep a lower profile when carrying. I try to avoid confrontations. Sometimes it's better to get a bruised ego than to go through a bunch of legal crap, even if in the end all is well.

 

[Arp32]

Crowded line is a bad place to pull a gun, much less shoot one.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

Darned if you do, darned if you don't in these types of situations. Especially around Black Friday where everyone seems to lose their minds, which is why I'm inside on THR. It is hard to determine where someone is going to stop their attack. Hit once and done. Hit twice. Hit you until you fall and start kicking your unconscious body until you are toted away in an ambulance. In a attack you don't know what your enemy is going to pull out and how determined they are to the fight. If you feel you need to pull your concealed to save your life then that is what you do. Just as long as you don't do it too early or too late.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Knowing that I'm carrying a deadly weapon, I most likely would not have challenged the line cutter. The knowledge that I can counter a potentially lethal attack is worth a little disrespect. It makes me less likely to initiate any kind of confrontation.

This.

 

[scaatylobo]

@ locnload

+1.

But in NYS its a FELONY attack if the victim is over 65 and the perp is 10 years or more younger.

That would allow a DPF response.

But as well pointed out = why be there.

To those that dont think he should have drawn - just imagine the perps next move was to draw a knife.

I am not a mind reader and as such I want to stay alive and unharmed as long as possible.

And NO there is no way I would go to such an event.

 

[zxcvbob]

I agree that the Three S Rule applies here. The man was perfectly within his right to draw. Gawd help him though if he would have shot the guy. There would be a media frenzy and he would be the bait.

Shoot, shovel, and shutup?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Yes, it WAS assault and battery

I'm being pedantic of course, but no, it wasn't.

He would not have been justified had he shot his handgun. Only drawing but not shooting is a gray area.

If he drew his weapon without justification to use it he would be in jail charged with Aggravated Assault. Under Texas law, there is no distinction between the standard necessary to draw your weapon and to pull the trigger.

That he isn't in jail argues very strongly that the responding police thought the person who drew his weapon had at least some reasonable claim that he feared his life was in danger. Which is the standard for both drawing the weapon and for dropping the hammer.

You do not get to draw your weapon in Texas unless you also get to use it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Draw a gun over a one-on-one simple assault not involving a weapon? Probably not. But I'm 31 years old and quite fit.

Be anywhere near a retail establishment on black Friday? DEFINITELY not.

Honestly, the entire tradition has become so materialistic and selfish it absolutely disgusts me. Millions of adults across this country behaving like preschoolers. We should all be ashamed.

 

[Onward Allusion]

zxcvbob

Quote:
I agree that the Three S Rule applies here. The man was perfectly within his right to draw. Gawd help him though if he would have shot the guy. There would be a media frenzy and he would be the bait.

Shoot, shovel, and shutup?

Going to stupid places, with stupid people, while doing stupid things - or whichever order one prefers.