nickn10
Member
There were no charges filed by the police after investigating the event and most likely questioning witnesses. Therefore I will presume he did the right thing. Good for him!
Yes, it WAS assault and battery, but would YOU have drawn?
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I agree with OARNGESI - he stopped the incident, period, just after it began. What, should he have allowed more punches, maybe tried to grab the guy to stop him attacking, put himself in a spot where he need to hit back to get out of the situation, allow the guy to pull a knife, potentially getting stabbed, THEN draw AND shoot the guy?
However - would I have done that? Probably not, if it was a one hit, that was it, the guy didn't look like he was going to do any more, I would like to think I would have just got someone to get on the phone to get the police there to take him away and do whatever they do with jerks.
However - would I have done that? Probably not, if it was a one hit, that was it, the guy didn't look like he was going to do any more, I would like to think I would have just got someone to get on the phone to get the police there to take him away and do whatever they do with jerks.
mgkdrgn
Member
+1
Once you have hit me, you have proven beyond any doubt that you intend to do me harm.
If you think that someone cutting in front of you - is someone walking all over you - I think you need to rethink your ego involvement. Sorry to be blunt.
It's nice to chest pound that the gun guy won the day - but he was stupid to get into it. If you don't get that point - you need some serious close up FOF exercises to see if drawing a gun in a crowded venue is something that is best avoided.
It's nice to chest pound that the gun guy won the day - but he was stupid to get into it. If you don't get that point - you need some serious close up FOF exercises to see if drawing a gun in a crowded venue is something that is best avoided.
WardenWolf
member
I think drawing may well have been the best choice. It otherwise could have descended into a riot if he had simply fought back. Drawing not only made the perpetrator back off but scattered the crowd.
blarby
Member
Warden makes a great point. Mobs on black friday have been fatal over far less.
Apparently the authorities believed it to be justified.
Kinda backs up the deduction that pulling it was the right choice.
Having the proper acumen, training, and restraint to not fire... and simply to use the tool as a rapid means of de-escalating the conflict by demonstration of superior force... Shows a level and grasp of oneself and ones abilities at that time and of the possible outcomes, coupled with a levelness of head.... that many would not possess in such an encounter.
Good for him.
I would have pressed charges on the perp.
Apparently the authorities believed it to be justified.
Kinda backs up the deduction that pulling it was the right choice.
Having the proper acumen, training, and restraint to not fire... and simply to use the tool as a rapid means of de-escalating the conflict by demonstration of superior force... Shows a level and grasp of oneself and ones abilities at that time and of the possible outcomes, coupled with a levelness of head.... that many would not possess in such an encounter.
Good for him.
I would have pressed charges on the perp.
Stress_Test
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It wasn't that far back on RugerForum where I read a story about two guys at a Walgreen's who got involved in a "line cutting" dispute. One guy shoved the other, one was pepper sprayed, one drew his gun, the other drew his gun in response, gunshots exchanged, one died, the other charged with murder.
In this case, what if you draw on the guy, and he also draws his gun. Then you HAVE to shoot him (or else run and hope he's a bad shot). Then the story the police, media, and prosecutor hear is that you shot a guy for cutting in line.
In this case, what if you draw on the guy, and he also draws his gun. Then you HAVE to shoot him (or else run and hope he's a bad shot). Then the story the police, media, and prosecutor hear is that you shot a guy for cutting in line.
smalls
Member
I'm not going to let people do whatever they want, and I won't put up with people being rude to me.
I'm not going to start a fist fight over it, but I won't sit silent.
Liberty1776
Member
still going back to this as my POV...
tomrkba
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I see no need to put up with stupid mobs rushing into a store for the sake of saving a few dollars. I signed up for the mailing lists that interest me and I have an email inbox full of coupons that expire on Cyber Monday.
Attacking someone over this is just stupid. Drawing is likely stupid, but the defender has to articulate why he or she felt there was a risk of maiming/great bodily harm or death. Clearly the answer satisfied the police.
Being present in the line in a mob was the mistake.
Attacking someone over this is just stupid. Drawing is likely stupid, but the defender has to articulate why he or she felt there was a risk of maiming/great bodily harm or death. Clearly the answer satisfied the police.
Being present in the line in a mob was the mistake.
So this is not about the few minutes you might lose to this idiot, it's about your self respect, your honor. Knowing you are armed, knowing where this might go, how important is that honor? What is it worth to you? Is it worth the loss of your house, your children's college fund, your freedom? All very real possibilities even if you use your weapon in defense of your life. In a dispute about a place in line, however - just consider how honorable you'll look in an orange jumpsuit.
The guy in the original story was lucky, very lucky. Don't count on that luck being contagious.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Just a though, but everyone saying "I just wouldn't have been there" and only that...isn't really answering the OP's question.
Esoxchaser
Member
To some prosecutors, the man who pulled the gun initiated the confrontation by not simply ignoring the other mans rudeness.
In a number of jurisdictions, Arizona among them, drawing and pointing a firearm without being able to show a reasonable apprehension of death or serious bodily harm would constitute aggravated assault or the local equivalent; Arizona and Florida are among those with a mandatory prison sentences.
While in confinement, your claim would not be credible--you will "let" and "put up with" whatever you have to.
Best to put your ego second.
Or quit carrying a firearm.
In Texas, one has a little more leeway, but he who draws may be shot, and he or she who fires and hits innocent bystanders will learn a new meaning for hardship.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Might be time to revisit ADEE.
Key word avoid.
From personal experience the only 2 time I saw a line cutting was,
1.At a church event and a bunch of grandma handled that verbally, oh so embarrassing verbally for the perp.
2. At a concert, when I was a kid ( Beach Boys, circa 64) 4 football types de-pants the perp.
For me I avoid crowds.
Key word avoid.
From personal experience the only 2 time I saw a line cutting was,
1.At a church event and a bunch of grandma handled that verbally, oh so embarrassing verbally for the perp.
2. At a concert, when I was a kid ( Beach Boys, circa 64) 4 football types de-pants the perp.
For me I avoid crowds.
scaatylobo
Member
^^^^^^^
@ bikerdoc
I like the way you think,sounds SO much like my thoughts.
AMEN.
@ bikerdoc
I like the way you think,sounds SO much like my thoughts.
AMEN.
smalls
Member
Please, do not twist my words.
If I'm standing in line, and someone cuts in front of me, or any other situation where someone is rude to me, there is no legal repercussion to saying "Excuse me, sir, I was here first".
Which is exactly what I said that I would say before everyone blew it up, and twisted my words.
Nor did I say that I would draw on someone because they were rude to me. Please do not put words in my mouth.
So let me repeat, I'm not going to start an altercation, but I am going to say something non confrontational.
Nothing wrong with that.
Yes, you did, in Post #14. Good idea.
But when GEM said...
See why things got off track?
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Here is some relevant Texas law that likely helped the CHL:
"Sec.*9.04.**THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."
So producing the handgun may have been seen as the use of force, not deadly force. If the CHL could have punched back, he could legally draw the gun. Of course if drawing the gun ends up escalating the problem, he may be in an awkward position both legally and tactically.
And considering there are cases where a 145lb girl killed a healthy adult male with a single punch to the head, I am a lot less likely to be cavalier about taking a few punches to the grape while carrying. But there aren't a lot of good options here if you can't avoid the initial confrontation. You are already in a fistfight while carrying a pistol. Things can get deadly in short order.
"Sec.*9.04.**THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."
So producing the handgun may have been seen as the use of force, not deadly force. If the CHL could have punched back, he could legally draw the gun. Of course if drawing the gun ends up escalating the problem, he may be in an awkward position both legally and tactically.
And considering there are cases where a 145lb girl killed a healthy adult male with a single punch to the head, I am a lot less likely to be cavalier about taking a few punches to the grape while carrying. But there aren't a lot of good options here if you can't avoid the initial confrontation. You are already in a fistfight while carrying a pistol. Things can get deadly in short order.
I also think that simply saying I wouldn't have been there simply avoids the question. I also think that speaking up about someone cutting you in line is not by any means provoking or escalating the situation. Noone expects to be punched in the face for that. In this situation I would attempt to put as much distance between me and the perp as fast as possible, letting him make the next move which would then dictate whether drawing/ using a gun is necessary. This would be a form of deescalation as backing off/abandoning your place in line would be giving the perp what he wants. If he continues to pursue then he is obviously intending to do more harm. If not then use the opportunutiy to alert a security guard. You are afterall surrounded by witnesses
It may avoid the question, but it is a very important element of strategy.
Agree.
True.
Distance is your ally, but in all but a very small handful of states, drawing a gun would not be lawfully justified unless his "next move" involved a weapon, or there was a very clear disparity of force.
Onward Allusion
Member
Sure it answer's the OP's question. Not being there in the first place is what I would have done from the get-go. If I was stupid enough to be at that stupid place and was carrying, I hopefully would have had the smarts to **** and said nothing.
This is the same reason I don't drink, go to clubs or bars, major sporting events, Chicago for it's "culture", AND Black Friday sales. We're all bunches of smart hairless apes who turn into dumb monkeys in crowds, especially when fighting over "scarce" resources. Don't believe me? Bring a mild-manner accountant type to a packed sports bar, pour a few drinks down his throat, and bring a couple of good looking women around him. I'll be ya dollars to doughnuts that the guy will be acting out of character fairly shortly.
Onward, you might not be at Black Friday, but you might be at the supermarket, on line at the dry cleaners or at McDonalds. Someone might cut in line at any of these places, and this is a much more likely event than six guys attacking you in an alley or some other such scenario that people train for that will probably never happen.
I think we need to train for what we're gonna do when someone beats us out of a parking space. You've got a gun on your hip and some stranger has just disrespected you in front of your date. How ya gonna handle it? Carrying deadly force is a game changer for all of us. We'd better come to terms with it.
I think we need to train for what we're gonna do when someone beats us out of a parking space. You've got a gun on your hip and some stranger has just disrespected you in front of your date. How ya gonna handle it? Carrying deadly force is a game changer for all of us. We'd better come to terms with it.
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