Yes, it WAS assault and battery, but would YOU have drawn?

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Losov
Onward, you might not be at Black Friday, but you might be at the supermarket, on line at the dry cleaners or at McDonalds. Someone might cut in line at any of these places, and this is a much more likely event than six guys attacking you in an alley or some other such scenario that people train for that will probably never happen.

I think we need to train for what we're gonna do when someone beats us out of a parking space. You've got a gun on your hip and some stranger has just disrespected you in front of your date. How ya gonna handle it? Carrying deadly force is a game changer for all of us. We'd better come to terms with it.
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I don't go to the supermarket during busy times (I go on Sunday evenings or weekday evenings), I don't do dry cleaners, I don't go inside fast-food joints - I do the drive thru. Even at our club, I don't visit very often on the weekends.

As for parking spaces, heck, if the other guy want it that bad and let him have the space. Of course, one day, he may run across someone who will turn his car into a Molotov cocktail after he leaves for his shopping, appointment...etc...etc.

Seriously, I don't think much of crowds and I avoid them if I can.

These days, if someone cuts in front of me and it is a one on one situation, they probably will get an "excuse me" from me. Anything beyond something verbal is unlikely. Fortunately, I haven't had that happen in a very long time . Maybe I have been lucky. Maybe it's that I just usually have a thousand mile stare on my face most of the time these days. I think I might have been 17 the last time someone cut in front of me. We had an exchange and the other person pulled a gun on me. I have learned the hard way not say anything in a crowded situation.

30 years ago (heh, even 20 years ago) something like that would have turned out to be a 911 situation and I probably would not have been around when the cops came. Fortunately, people change - for the most part and now I avoid crowds and other people.

One can train all they want, but if someone just got fired from their job, lost a loved one, got divorced, filed for bankruptcy...etc...etc...reactions will be different than if they just got that promotion or had a new baby or even a boring normal day. This is why our prisons are filled with guys who snapped just that one time. We are all capable of snapping and ruining or ending our lives and that of the other guy. . . :(
 
Onward Allusion said:
One can train all they want, but if someone just got fired from their job, lost a loved one, got divorced, filed for bankruptcy...etc...etc...reactions will be different than if they just got that promotion or had a new baby or even a boring normal day. This is why our prisons are filled with guys who snapped just that one time. We are all capable of snapping and ruining or ending our lives and that of the other guy. . .
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Interesting response, Onward. And disturbing. The anti-gunners are constantly looking for new reasons why we should not be armed and you've just handed them volumes. Hope I'm not around when you snap.
 
The whole situation stinks. Because we have to think whether or not we are going to get in a fix with the law,and have to think twice on every situation, bad guys have the upper hand.I do not believe I would have drawn, but I do think I would have gone full on cave man and boot stomp the bejeasus out of him. Thankfully, I do not get in these situations,simply because i hate battling crowds for some sillyness. ...........
 
For myself, I don't think I would have seen a single punch in the face as a lethal threat, and if the line-cutter stopped after one or two punches, I think I would have tried to keep my responses limited to non-lethal means. Of course, if the assault turned into a sustained attack, this old man probably would have had to call on Mr Smith for help.
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First of all, a single punch can be lethal. If the first punch didn't kill you, the next one may.

Second, a man who is willing to punch you in the face over a remark you made is not in control of himself -- once he starts he may not stop until you're dead or crippled.

So, yes -- this is an occasion where you are justified in drawing.
 
Posted by Matt1911: Because we have to think whether or not we are going to get in a fix with the law,and have to think twice on every situation, bad guys have the upper hand.
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That doesn't follow.

Law abiding citizens simply need to abide by the law. That doesn't give anyone else "the upper hand."

I do not believe I would have drawn,....
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Good. In most jurisdictions, drawing would not be lawfully justified.


... but I do think I would have gone full on cave man and boot stomp the bejeasus out of him.
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Or he, out of you.

Seriously? You would lose your temper and fight violently, and risk escalation to a level of who knows what? Then you should not be carrying any kind of weapon at all.
 
So, yes -- this is an occasion where you are justified in drawing.
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In Texas and in at least two other states, yes. Or if there is a clear disparity of force.

Otherwise likely not.
 
So, what would YOU have done?
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I think we're losing sight of that one a little ?

Has anyone considered that what he did was predicated on a full and complete knowledge of the laws exactly where he stood ?

It certainly played out like he had no idea what he was doing. :rolleyes:

I think this is one of those situations where your location is going to very greatly shade your response, or at least it should.

"When in Rome, do like the Romans"

Acting as a Roman in certain latitudes and longitudes of suburbia is likely to end you in the clink.

Be a good citizen. Learn your precincts laws, and, almost as importantly, how your local constabulary interprets them.

Being legally right is always good.

Having a little conversation with the local leo's (which, as a CCW'r, you should do as a matter of course - even if you choose not to as a plain ol' citizen) as to how they see use of force incidents is never a bad thing........
 
Also consider the type of punch being used. Hammer blows to the back of the victim's head and neck are lethal attacks. Even something as simple as a belly punch can turn lethal. A person with mono will have an enlarged spleen and it can rupture with even light force. A bystander will not know that, but you will if you're the recipient of a punch.

The problem comes after the fact in court. A description of the attack may gloss over the type of punch used. It all comes down to you. You must be able to articulate why you felt you had fear of maiming/great bodily harm or death.
 
Losov

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
One can train all they want, but if someone just got fired from their job, lost a loved one, got divorced, filed for bankruptcy...etc...etc...reactions will be different than if they just got that promotion or had a new baby or even a boring normal day. This is why our prisons are filled with guys who snapped just that one time. We are all capable of snapping and ruining or ending our lives and that of the other guy. . .
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Interesting response, Onward. And disturbing. The anti-gunners are constantly looking for new reasons why we should not be armed and you've just handed them volumes. Hope I'm not around when you snap.
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Dude, please stop with your holier than thou attitude. You hope that you are not around when I snap??? When did I indicate that? I really want to know. Personally, I wouldn't want to be around anyone that snaps.

I'm calling it like it is. Every one of us, including anti gunners AND YOU have the potential to snap. When I refer to snapping, I am referring to you or the other guy depending on their day and their following course of action. Some snap by throwing a punch, others will hurl out verbal insults, and thankfully still rarer there those out there that will do much worst.

BTW, what was so disturbing about my response? I really would like to know. . . Like I'd said, I'm calling it like it is. Otherwise, our prisons wouldn't be filled with guys who crossed that line just once.
 
In ohio we have a duty to retreat so I would not have drawn but in the heat of the moment I might have responded (and Im sure most people will disagree with this) with equal force. Seems unlikely that someone would have the cojones to punch me in the face but we live in strange times. Personally, even without the duty to retreat, I would not have drawn in this situation. I would definitely call the police immediately.
 
He felt threatened and justifiably so. He put a weapon between himself and the source of danger. The attacker relented so the weapon was never used. There is a time and place for blandishment. This is no different than when a threatened animal bares its teeth or claws.
 
I great big yes, and I have before. Our state has just passed a law that gives us legal stance concerning unarmed threats, and the use of deadly force.

GS
 
Pretty much directly in line with Losov thoughout the whole thread.

From personal experience the only 2 time I saw a line cutting was,
1.At a church event and a bunch of grandma handled that verbally, oh so embarrassing verbally for the perp.
2. At a concert, when I was a kid ( Beach Boys, circa 64) 4 football types de-pants the perp.

For me I avoid crowds.
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Similar story. Young punk in a movie theater took a couple seats that were clearly being saved. Gentleman in his 80's humiliated him in front of the audience when he refused to move, after which he did :neener:
 
Situational awareness = don't put yourself in these types of black Friday sales.

But in any event, yes a punch can be lethal.
 
Onward Allusion said:
Yes, but I still want to know what was so disturbing about my response. Was what I said incorrect somehow?
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"We are all capable of snapping and ruining or ending our lives and that of the other guy. . . " (your quote)

If this were true, (which it is not) the anti-gunners would be justified in making the case that no one should be armed . And I would agree. For someone in our ranks to make such a statement is unconscionable.

No, sir, we are not all capable of snapping and lashing out violently. If you believe this to be true of yourself I beg you to reconsider your ownership of and access to deadly weapons.

I also ask that you re-read the first quote you include in your sig.
 
You can't let people just cut in line and say nothing. That encourages more people to do it and things deteriorate.
If people can just cut then there is no point to lines, and when there is no respect for lines then it actually gets more dangerous because people try to squeeze and push and trample and hurt eachother because they know thier spot in line means nothing, just who gets there first. People get seriously injured and killed from trampling in such situations, so respect for lines is also a safety issue.
So it goes beyond just manners or getting one of a limited number of products, and line cutting actually turns orderly lines into mobs.

Saying something is a reasonable normal thing to do.
Retaliating with a physical attack is an unreasonable response. Even if the person saying something is felt to be wrong, or there is a misunderstanding.
It is not a reasonable expectation to expect a physical attack for saying something either.
So it is in no way provoking an attack or partially responsible for it.



Drawing is highly dependent on the situation. In some situations highly inapproariate and in others it is more open to discretion.
I don't know the context of the attack, if the aggressor was still aggressive after the first attack or menacing, if it took the old man down or dazed him and he didn't know what the extent was and felt it better to draw, etc
But even in those understandable situations if a shot is fired things are going to be an uphill battle.
When a gun is produced the situation often is diffused, but sometimes it gets worse.
In those cases that it gets worse not having been clearly justified in shooting when producing a gun and someone then attacking or trying to take the gun and resulting in a shooting can put the shooter in very hot water. While not shooting if they attack or try to take the gun can result in lethal consequences to the drawer with thier own gun either when taken by force, or taken off them or the ground after they go down, or a struggle over the weapon and discharge of it during the struggle. So if things go bad those situations often result in a lose-lose scenario.
This can include even in places where it may be legal to pull it when deadly force is not yet justified.
So encouraging people to too readily fall back on a firearm as a general course of action would not be wise.
While telling people as a general course of action to wait too long is not ideal either.
But do keep in mind once a firearm is introduced the severity of the situation is definately increased, and sometimes that goes badly.



As for this materialistic holiday, it is pretty strange. The average person would make more working the number of hours it takes to stand in line than they save from the sales, and the time would probably go by faster working and/or be less stressful.
I was quite disappointed to see they are now starting it on Thanksgiving evening instead of the following morning at many retailers as well. So one of the primary holidays for families now encourages people to not be with the family and go shop in order to not miss out on the deal. And it goes even further than that, large numbers of retail and related employees having to work even Thanksgiving evening instead of having the option of being with thier family, or risk losing thier job. While retailers don't want to be outdone by the next guy opening earlier. It is really sad demonstration of how selfish business often is.
 
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Losov

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
Yes, but I still want to know what was so disturbing about my response. Was what I said incorrect somehow?
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"We are all capable of snapping and ruining or ending our lives and that of the other guy. . . " (your quote)

If this were true, (which it is not) the anti-gunners would be justified in making the case that no one should be armed . And I would agree. For someone in our ranks to make such a statement is unconscionable.

No, sir, we are not all capable of snapping and lashing out violently. If you believe this to be true of yourself I beg you to reconsider your ownership of and access to deadly weapons.

I also ask that you re-read the first quote you include in your sig.
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Let's get back on track. You stated: "I think we need to train for what we're gonna do when someone beats us out of a parking space. You've got a gun on your hip and some stranger has just disrespected you in front of your date. How ya gonna handle it? Carrying deadly force is a game changer for all of us. We'd better come to terms with it."

My reply that got you going was: "One can train all they want, but if someone just got fired from their job, lost a loved one, got divorced, filed for bankruptcy...etc...etc...reactions will be different than if they just got that promotion or had a new baby or even a boring normal day. This is why our prisons are filled with guys who snapped just that one time. We are all capable of snapping and ruining or ending our lives and that of the other guy. . . "

Evidently, you have a hard time accepting the fact that each and every one of us has a dark side and that dark side comes out when the chips are down. In some cases people's dark side comes out on Black Friday (kinda funny actually). All I was trying to explain to you was that training is of no use if and when you run across someone like that. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you shut up or speak up, if the guy's had a bad day/week/month/year and cuts in front of you, he's already looking for a fight. If it happens that you had a tough (and I don't mean was late for a meeting tough) day/week...etc...etc...etc... and the guy did it to you, what do you think will happen? Do you think you'll just keep quiet? What happens then?

My premise is that we are all hairless apes capable of building wonders and also capable of some of the darkest acts. I know some of us don't believe it, but folks can believe whatever they want. Do you think we're that civilized? If you did, you wouldn't carry or own firearms for defensive purposes.

Black Friday? Cakewalk! What happen during and after Sandy? That was a week of inconvenience and the hairless apes were attacking workers trying to fix their problems, but I digress.

Like I'd said, believe whatever you want to believe, it's still a free country but please do not pontificate to me.
 
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First of all, this spending spree called "Black Friday" is a prime example of Farnhams' advice. Stupid people, stupid places, stupid things. I have to question the sanity of ANYONE who is willing to subject themselves to the behavior of the type we've seen in the news these last several years. Blue haired old ladies in fistfights over toys. A doorkeeper trampled to death at a midnight wallyworld opening. Guy takes his toddler shopping, buys television, forgets toddler at store. And you're willing to go into this obviously deranged crowd? With a gun?

To answer the OP in detail: I would not have been there. I would not have been in a position to say anything to said cretin. If said cretin had wandered into an environment occupied by myself and others, he may have had inklings of misbehavior. Cutting line gets a comment to the effect that he may have not noticed where the line started. Getting physical would have resulted in a failed punch or a full on beatdown, however far he wished to push the issue.
 
Posted by gamestalker: I great big yes, and I have before. Our state has just passed a law that gives us legal stance concerning unarmed threats, and the use of deadly force.
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Arizona citizens and those in all of the other states and all of the territories have long been able to lawfully use deadly force against unarmed threats--under some very limited circumstances in which a disparity of force exists. It is often a difficult defense, but it exists.

You are no doubt referring to the relatively recent Arizonal law that provides for the lawful defensive display of a weapon.

That comes into play when a citizen has reason to believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

It permits verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm or holding, exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

It does not permit pointing the muzzle of a firearm directly at another person. For that reason, it is very prudent indeed to refrain from actually drawing the firearm unless deadly force would be justified.

Nor does it permit firing the weapon.

People who intend to carry a weapon in arizona should take the time to study the following:

http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concealed_Weapons/documents/instructors_ccw_legal.pdf
 
To cut it to the base question, at my age in my physical condition assuming I was stupid enough to be there.... If I was carrying Yes I believe I would have drawn. I doubt I would have contemplated the local regulations once stunned with a punch to the head. At that point I am trying to survive, period.

Shove me, I like to think I will withdraw. Punch me, especially in the head, I will take my chances explaining it to the court.
 
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