You can NOT regularly sell 'personal collection' at gun shows.

[OneFreeTexan]

My previous post may have been mis-understood. Section 921 (1)(21)(c) states a person may only make "occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection" . I think 'occasional' does NOT mean at a gun show every weekend.
So how are some of these guys 'getting away' with doing this, and why are the show operators permitting the same guy getting a table at every show they sponser??

 

[Kharn]

You're allowed to liquidate a collection, or the guy could just be showing off all of his guns (so he gets into the show early and can snatch all the good deals), the occasional individual paying way too much for a beater only makes the day better.

Kharn

 

[JohnBT]

Well, I see a lot of the same guys time after time at the gun show, but they're selling the same guns it looks like. A couple of them were only in it for the 'best table display' prize and to get away from the house I think.

Let's say I know of this guy with 1200 shotguns. Uh-huh, that's right. Suppose he decided to sell them all at gun shows in order to upgrade his collection to, say, something similar such as double rifles. I'd think it'd be legal for him to take 100 guns to 12 different shows (assuming he sold all 100 at each show of course. If not he'd have to keep trying I guess.)

Me? I've never sold a gun for cash in 50 years, so what do I know.

John

 

[Atticus]

In the other thread - you asked if anyone made a living doing this. Not mis-understood - just inappropriate.

I know what you're talking about though. I see the same collectors at most shows. Some of the other dealers even complain about them -since their sales do not have to be called in. JohnBT makes a good point though-how can you prove that a few guys, who collectively own 500 guns, aren't enhancing their collection? A pretty fuzzy legal line there. Aat least they aren't trying to hide the fact, like the scummy parking lot crawlers (sharks) I see all the time.

 

[dukeofurl]

Out of perverse circumstance, I seem to be acquiring new toys at an alarming rate.

As a result I go to the show and try to unload a few of my old ones.

Does this make me a dealer?

The antis keep screaming about "unlicensed dealers" when the defintion of dealer does not apply and getting a license is impossible.

 

[TallPine]

Does anybody ever feel "infringed" ....?

 

[Art Eatman]

Thirty-some-odd years back, before paranoia got codified into law and regulation, I got into the gunshow thing at Austin, Texas. There were four shows a year, which to me seems "occasional". Now, I might or might not do a show or two a year, mostly because of the travel.

"Occasional" has never really been defined.

There are a lot of gray areas: Say you're selling off the lesser-quality guns from a collection. You take a trade as part of a particular deal, plus cash. Is it "engaging in business as a dealer" to then sell the trade-in? I don't think so, but I don't get to write the regulations.

With today's laws and regulations, it seems to me that the only legal way a guy can make any sort of living from gunshows is to be a sure-enough FFL dealer. There's just too much of the old red tape and hassle-factor to do otherwise.

I dunno. I miss it, because of the camaraderie and sorta-family atmosphere of gunshows. We all knew each other, and did a lot of visiting. I never got a bad check, either...

All this fear of an armed citizenry on the part of Schumer, et al, makes me think their limousines oughta have yellow racing stripes.

Art

 

[Standing Wolf]

Does anybody ever feel "infringed" ....?

Yep. I've never seen anything about gun show rules and regulations in the Second Amendment.

 

[Jim K]

BATFE has ways to spot and arrest an illegal dealer other than just volume of sales, which might not stand up in court. One technique is to have an undercover agent ask the guy to "get me an x [something not on display]". If the guy says he doesn't have one but will get it, then he is a dealer under the general definition since he is buying for the purpose of resale, and can't just be selling or trading his collection. Since the seller made the offer to "get one", there is no entrapment.

Jim

 

[Majic]

edit

 

[Majic]

If the guy says he doesn't have one but will get it, then he is a dealer under the general definition since he is buying for the purpose of resale, and can't just be selling or trading his collection.

That could be debatable if the seller actually don't have one with him, but does have one at home. The lawyers would have fun with the context of the statement.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Some of the other dealers even complain about them -since their sales do not have to be called in.

Atticus, so licensed dealers are in favor of closing the so-called "gun show loophole"? It makes sense, I just never looked at it that way.

Regardsm

 

[Blackcloud6]

Didn't the BATFE go after some old guys in Missouri or Kansas about a year or so ago for doing just what we are talking aboutAs I faintly recall there were a few retired guys going from gun show to gunshow selling rifles and making money to suppliment their retirement and the BATFE nailed them for being unlicensed dealers.

 

[Atticus]

"Atticus, so licensed dealers are in favor of closing the so-called "gun show loophole"? It makes sense, I just never looked at it that way."

Some are.... yes. The sellers are playing the same game, under different rules.

 

[Harold Mayo]

My previous post may have been mis-understood. Section 921 (1)(21)(c) states a person may only make "occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection" . I think 'occasional' does NOT mean at a gun show every weekend.
So how are some of these guys 'getting away' with doing this, and why are the show operators permitting the same guy getting a table at every show they sponser??

In answer to how these guys are "getting away" with it...? Several "reasons".
1. No one (well, perhaps a few like you) actually cares.
2. Try and debate in court the definition of "occasional".
3. Limited number of federal agents to enforce the law AND it's obviously not worth enforcing, anyway.
4. No one actually cares. Oh...I mentioned that already.


Why are the show operators permitting it?
1. No one actually cares.
2. Money.
3. They are regulars that can be depended upon...oh, yeah...that means money.
4. Show operators believe in the right to keep and bear arms NOT being infringed...which you obviously do not.


I know MANY guys who don't hold FFL's who set up at a lot of shows. Do they make money? Probably so...or they wouldn't keep doing it. Are they making cash to keep? Sometimes, but normally they turn any "profit" directly back into their collection to build it.

OneFreeTexan...are you also in favor of inheritance taxes? Higher tax rates for successful businessmen who have actually risked something and gotten rewarded for their endeavors? Would you like a redistribution of wealth from the "haves" to the "have-nots"? Sounds like it to me.

The fact is, the guys who sell "personal collections" at shows harm no one. Of all the people I know and all the shows that I attend, I can think of no one selling anything that has been used in a crime. Most of the guys that I know who attend a lot of shows (and have tables) deal in collectible pieces and antiques or even in gun parts. It's not some guy who has bought up a bunch of "Saturday Night Specials" (I depise that term) and who is selling them to the local gang members at a gun show to take advantage of the "gun show loophole". If you believe stuff like that, then you need to get some more information.:banghead:

 

[thatguy]

State laws vary, federal law allows for "occasional" sales but they have never defined occasional. If the ATF decides that you are "engaged in the business of selling guns" you may be busted. It has happened to these gunshow people. I think that if you sell 3 or 4 guns a year nobody notices or cares. If you start selling guns monthly you are probably breaking the intent of the law and may be arrested.

 

[StopTheGrays]

Unlicensed dealers are not required to collect sales taxes like licensed dealers are (in states that have sales taxes). A small point but one that has not been made. Whatever taxes they do not collect has to be made up somewhere. Does anyone want to have to pay more taxes to support these people?

 

[Harold Mayo]

Unlicensed dealers are not required to collect sales taxes like licensed dealers are (in states that have sales taxes). A small point but one that has not been made. Whatever taxes they do not collect has to be made up somewhere. Does anyone want to have to pay more taxes to support these people?

What?!?!?


"Whatever taxes they do ont collect has to be made up somewhere"????

Please explain how you arrived at that. You are (apparently) working on the assumption that sales by unlicensed individuals (and then you have to define the difference between actual occasional sales and the "regular" unlicensed sales that go on) are already counted upon by our government as revenue and, when said unlicensed individuals DO NOT pay sales tax on their sales (that have yet to be quantified or even qualified), then someone else has to somehow "make up" the difference...? Did I get that right? I believe so.

I will also make a small point. Even if the above train of thought pursued by StopTheGrays (who is also OneFreeTexan?) WAS correct, I would most gladly funnel my taxes toward supporting unlicensed firearms deals at gun shows between collectors as opposed to subsidizing housing and food stamps for inner-city drug dealers like I do now.:banghead:

 

[TheDutchman]

Quote from a collector at Austin,Tx Saxet gun show last month
$650 out the door including tax.Tax are you a dealer no,then what does tax have to due with the person to person sale, well its included in the price. My reply are you a dealer no, then i told the felon have a nice day.

 

[TallPine]

A point not yet mentioned is that it is basically impossible to get or keep an FFL unless you have a storefront (regular place of business).

So in effect our esteemed feral govt has made a situation where you (a small dealer/trader) cannot comply with the law even if you want to :banghead:


The simple soulution is to repeal GCA-1968 and do away with the FFL system altogether.

 

[firearms_instructor]

"Quote from a collector at Austin,Tx Saxet gun show last month
$650 out the door including tax.Tax are you a dealer no,then what does tax have to due with the person to person sale, well its included in the price. My reply are you a dealer no, then i told the felon have a nice day."

I don't get it, what makes him a felon?

 

[OneFreeTexan]

Thanks, Harold

Harold,
I appreciate your answers. To set the record straight, I am not against these type of sales. I think they should be allowed. I am just trying to figure out how they are doing it 'cause some guys certainly are doing gunshows for a living without a FFL.
Aren't these type of sales the same as people selling other items on ebay? There are many people "making a living" on ebay, and I'm sure they aren't all paying sales tax. Of course, because they aren't selling guns, it may only be a state issue(sales tax) and not a federal one. These people can buy stuff anywhere(China, Taiwan, etc) and sell it on ebay or at flea markets,,,,and no problem.
We can't go to a different state and buy guns to bring home, either to keep or sell, without involving a FFL.
I guess we just keep pushing our legislators to pass favorable laws and get rid of the bad ones.

 

[Thumper]

I think they should be allowed. I am just trying to figure out how they are doing it 'cause some guys certainly are doing gunshows for a living without a FFL.

If they are, on a table with 10-15 guns, it aint a very good living.

Gunnies are mostly pretty savvy, price wise. Profit margins aren't that good.

 

[StopTheGrays]

Please explain how you arrived at that. You are (apparently) working on the assumption that sales by unlicensed individuals (and then you have to define the difference between actual occasional sales and the "regular" unlicensed sales that go on) are already counted upon by our government as revenue and, when said unlicensed individuals DO NOT pay sales tax on their sales (that have yet to be quantified or even qualified), then someone else has to somehow "make up" the difference...? Did I get that right? I believe so.

I will also make a small point. Even if the above train of thought pursued by StopTheGrays (who is also OneFreeTexan?) WAS correct, I would most gladly funnel my taxes toward supporting unlicensed firearms deals at gun shows between collectors as opposed to subsidizing housing and food stamps for inner-city drug dealers like I do now.

Our state budget uses revenue numbers from past years adjusted by inflation and population growth (among other factors). Monies not collected from the possible taxes of unlicensed sales are not added to the whole sum collected with other additional taxes throughout the year. Any surpluses are returned to the tax payers as a refund, unlicensed dealers are not paying the taxes they owe from their sales reducing the size of any refund (these guys are not supposed to be selling on a regular basis in order to make a profit just as licensed dealers must show they are in fact running as a business not just a way to increase their and their friends personal collections).

Remember, I did say it was a small point. The amount of tax monies that could be collected would be be very small.

Also, please do not insinuate that I am posting under different user names, it may start a trend. (Harold Mayo aka GunKid?).

 

[Wakal]

Didn't the BATFE go after some old guys in Missouri or Kansas about a year or so ago for doing just what we are talking aboutAs I faintly recall there were a few retired guys going from gun show to gunshow selling rifles and making money to suppliment their retirement and the BATFE nailed them for being unlicensed dealers.

I've been waiting to hear how that one turned out. The old guy they picked up for being an "unlicenced dealer" as part of a year-long sting operation...had been trying for YEARS to get an FFL. The BATF kept denying his applications because he did not have a storefront.

He kept telling them that he was dealing in large volumes of guns at gun shows ONLY, but they kept denying his applications to become a dealer solely because he did have a storefront. He didn't want a storefront, he wanted to sell at gunshows. But they wouldn't give him a licence.

So...they busted him for...dealing without a licence.

Go figure.

If anyone anything about how this case is going, I would be most grateful to hear it...





Alex