Your thoughts on PCCs (pistol-caliber carbines)
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Elkins45
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I shot my 9mm AR today. In a rather snarky moment I came up with a bad marketing slogan for PCCs.
“Pistol caliber carbines: combining the weight of a rifle with the marginal effectiveness of a handgun.”
Given that I own a few I’m clearly not opposed to them, but other than as range toys and maybe as home defense guns they don’t seem like a must-have class of firearm. When compared objectively to rifles and handguns they really do combine many of their disadvantages .
“Pistol caliber carbines: combining the weight of a rifle with the marginal effectiveness of a handgun.”
Given that I own a few I’m clearly not opposed to them, but other than as range toys and maybe as home defense guns they don’t seem like a must-have class of firearm. When compared objectively to rifles and handguns they really do combine many of their disadvantages .
Crosshair
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I honestly think that applies to many of us. The vast majority of us are no Jack Wilson. Sure I can handle 3" buckshot just fine at the range. When the range is your home and it is now 2-way, I'm not going to be firing on all cylinders. I'm going to be still groggy, I won't be shouldering the shotgun quite right, and I'll put myself on my back if I touched off 3" buck inside my house at 3am.
When you think about it, PCCs are so simple and easy to shoot that you can be in your underwear half asleep, your stance, grip, and shouldering all wrong. Yet still effectively put rounds onto target.
This isn't directed specifically at you. It's aimed more at the line of thinking in your post, as I've seen it in many places and I don't want to dismiss it outright. I really wish there was good data on the noise levels of PCCs vs a 16" AR indoors vs handguns. Good data on how disorienting that muzzle blast really is when you're not wrapped in hearing and eye protection. I know just from shooting from a covered range that the AR is just so much louder, more fatiguing, and more disorienting than the PCC in even a partially enclosed environment. If we had better hard data, this issue would be so much easier to discuss in a more objective fashion.
Yes I know that neither the AR or the PCC are hearing safe, but even above 140db there are still degrees of hearing damage. If you had to pick getting hit by a car doing 15 mph or a bus doing 30 mph, you're of course going to pick the car. Yes both are going to hurt, but the car is going to hurt a LOT less.
People say "Don't worry about hearing damage, worry about winning the fight". Try telling someone with severe tinnitus that it's "Not a big deal". Be sure to have someone video tape it.
Yes in theory 5.56 is more more effective than a 9mm PCC. Except that same logic would dictate that we all use .308 AR-10s for home defense. Because .308 is much more effective than 5.56. You could take that all the way until we're using hand grenades for home defense.
Personally, I'd rewrite that saying to "Pistol caliber carbines: combining the ease of use of a 22 with the hitting power of a centerfire cartridge."
The SAS in the Iranian embassy used their MP5s pretty much exclusively in semi-auto mode. Why? Because the low recoil made them easy to shoot accurately and quickly. They swept through and dinked the terrorists with multiple headshots each before they knew what was going on. They didn't care about 200 yard ballistics.
So a PCC gives up a little bit of terminal ballistics in exchange for massively reduced muzzle blast and flash, lower recoil, and faster followup shots. Is it worth that tradeoff? That's up to the individual.
BlueHeelerFl
Member
I would like to see some research on noise levels as well.
I have hearing damage to my right ear and loud noise is very uncomfortable. I have do double up on hearing protection at the indoor range since even some handgun rounds effect me with just ear muffs on
Elkins45
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How about this: "Handles like a shotgun but hits like a pistol."
Which is louder, a 9mm pistol or a 123 gauge shotgun when fired indoors? I honestly don't know but I suspect a shotgun isn't nearly as bad as a centerfire rifle and not much louder than a pistol.
Other than recoil sensitivity I can't see a reason to favor a PCC over an 18" shotgun. Plus, the shotgun can often be purchased at nearly half the cost and even the low-recoil defensive ammo would probably be a whole level more effective as a fight stopper.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
For city folk, practicing with a home defense type shotgun can be problematic. Most ranges around here don't let you shoot anything but slugs on handgun or rifle ranges. Most people I hear speak of using shotguns for home defense don't suggest using slugs.
So, for those city folk that don't want to try trap or skeet with their home defense shotgun, their practice options may be limited. Since most ranges in or near a city allow shooting handgun cartridges, the PCC is something that should be easier to find a place to practice with for city folk.
I figure an excellent compromise carbine for those that like the shotgun and can't practice with it, and those that don't want an autoloader, would be a pump action PCC. Somebody bring back the Timberwolf, puhleaze.
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just for clarity, despite the much lower amount of energy in a 9mm compared to 223, most people think felt recoil is the same or more because of a typically large reciprocating bolt in blow back systems.
also, a downside of the heavy slow pistol bullets is deeper penetration in walls and such, as compared to some 223 rounds which quickly fragment (mitigated somewhat by a reduced chance of missing)
for sure, 223 "blast" and noise is way way way more than 9mm, and it gets much worse as the barrel gets shorter. shotguns are loud indoors. outdoors the long barrel helps make it less noisy for the shooter, but if that's all reflected back indoors, it's not good.
also, a downside of the heavy slow pistol bullets is deeper penetration in walls and such, as compared to some 223 rounds which quickly fragment (mitigated somewhat by a reduced chance of missing)
for sure, 223 "blast" and noise is way way way more than 9mm, and it gets much worse as the barrel gets shorter. shotguns are loud indoors. outdoors the long barrel helps make it less noisy for the shooter, but if that's all reflected back indoors, it's not good.
that's true, and you're right. most of us don't practice enough. and none of us practice making headshots naked at 3am 6 seconds after waking from a sound sleep
Elkins45
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For city folk, practicing with a home defense type shotgun can be problematic. Most ranges around here don't let you shoot anything but slugs on handgun or rifle ranges. Most people I hear speak of using shotguns for home defense don't suggest using slugs.
So, for those city folk that don't want to try trap or skeet with their home defense shotgun, their practice options may be limited. Since most ranges in or near a city allow shooting handgun cartridges, the PCC is something that should be easier to find a place to practice with for city folk.
I figure an excellent compromise carbine for those that like the shotgun and can't practice with it, and those that don't want an autoloader, would be a pump action PCC. Somebody bring back the Timberwolf, puhleaze.
It surprises me you couldn’t shoot a load of #8 bird shot at an indoor range. Honestly it surprises me you can’t shoot buck at one, but I have almost no experience shooting indoors.
I agree that the pump action rifle has a lot going for it and I have always wondered why there aren’t more of them on the market. Even though I live in a free state I would consider buying one of the Troy pump ARs just to shoot subsonic 300 Blackout. If Remington weren’t being run by dolts they could bring back the 7615 and sell a ton of them in ban states.
pump rifles are suboptimal for many reasons. rifle ammo is normally pointy, and potentially dangerous in tube magazines. pump actions typically suck for accuracy because the actions are sheet metal and the barrel has cheap metal parts sliding up and down it instead of being free floated.
they're slow to load and shoot
they're slow to load and shoot
Nature Boy
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exactly that, plus hone your volume reloading skills
Nature Boy
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I need a fur hat
About practice - in many locales it is easier to find a match for a PCC than a shotgun. IDPA and USPSA allow such (although some venues don't - indoor matches and some clubs). However, the disallowers probably wouldn't have a shotgun match either. You can find three gun but that is more intense than the other two. Where I used to compete, we had a shotgun side match but that's a rarity.
Shooting 100 9mms is easier on the average person than 100 12 gauges in a course or match. Been there.
Shooting 100 9mms is easier on the average person than 100 12 gauges in a course or match. Been there.
BlueHeelerFl
Member
My local indoor range allows buck shot but not bird shot. I think this is due to greater risk of hitting the target cables.
They were actually replacing a cable that had been hit at my indoor range this morning.
Back during the AWB in the day I was interested in the 7615. I actually wouldn't mind getting one even though I live in FL
shoobe01
Member
I currently have a big bandage on my hand because at 6 am (alarm goes off at 6:30) the cat got caught in the blinds next to my head, I went to help her and she bit my hand to use as a point of leverage, successfully pulled herself off. But... man did it bleed, hurt, etc.
I know perfectly well not to reach for a panicked cat (at least without a towel or something). Woken from a sound sleep, I was not that smart. And, this was daylight! Someone breaks down the door at 4 am... none of us will do well, I just hope I have enough tens of thousands of iterations on my carbine, in all lighting, that my default even with no glasses or earpro is smarter than my cat interdiction.
I hope.
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Chuck R.
Member
Elkins45
Member
Pointy bullets and precision accuracy aren’t relevant for a home defense gun, or really even for man-sized targets at typical shooting ranges. Reloading speed (and pointy bullets) aren’t an isssue if it’s a pump that takes detachable box magazines. Imagine a pump rifle that takes AR magazines (like the Remington 7615) but chambered in something like 350 Legend or 450 Bushmaster.
FWIW the Remington 7600 rifles have always had a good reputation for accuracy, much more so than the autoloader versions.
Remington 7615 - that was an attempt to get police 223 rifles without the negative militarized bias that the AR platforms were generating. You can see mayor, the public, city council members denouncing the ARs as weapons of war, etc. The 'nice' rationale was that police had experience with the 870s so they could transfer to the rifle. I guess it was thought (PR) that they couldn't figure out an AR. Duh.
Same rationale was for the original Ruger PC9, as it didn't look evil with a 'military' round. However, the Hollywood shootout blew away the 9mm as optimal. One gun rag, trying to put a positive spin on the gun, said the body armor critique was legit but it would be easier to get head and leg shots with the carbine.
The resurgence of the gun is that they are fun, PCC friendly, avoid AR type state bans, reasonably easy to shoot for SD and home defense. Easier than a 12 gauge and WHAT about stopping power - yawn? Some quality ammo and a 10 round mag in a ban state is nothing to sneeze at.
Same rationale was for the original Ruger PC9, as it didn't look evil with a 'military' round. However, the Hollywood shootout blew away the 9mm as optimal. One gun rag, trying to put a positive spin on the gun, said the body armor critique was legit but it would be easier to get head and leg shots with the carbine.
The resurgence of the gun is that they are fun, PCC friendly, avoid AR type state bans, reasonably easy to shoot for SD and home defense. Easier than a 12 gauge and WHAT about stopping power - yawn? Some quality ammo and a 10 round mag in a ban state is nothing to sneeze at.
Charlie98
Member
The only PCC I have is a Marlin 1894 in .41MAG... but I'd love to have something else.
I've always been intrigued by the Marlin Camp Carbines... and I've looked at a few, but never pulled the trigger, so to speak. The parts and reliability being the biggest concern.
I was sort of excited about the Ruger, but that went away pretty quickly when I saw it was a TD model, and butt ugly.
I'd love to have an HK USC, but the cost of admission is a bit much.
I've always thought a redesigned M1 Carbine in 9mm, 10mm, or .45ACP would be a pretty sweet carbine... sort of a retro- but new-and-improved version of the Marlin CC.
I'm also considering an AR PCC build, but that will require some research because all I ever see is negative feedback, mostly, on those.
There are reasons for them, there are reasons against them... you pays your monies, you takes your chances. I guess it really depends on why you want it...
I've always been intrigued by the Marlin Camp Carbines... and I've looked at a few, but never pulled the trigger, so to speak. The parts and reliability being the biggest concern.
I was sort of excited about the Ruger, but that went away pretty quickly when I saw it was a TD model, and butt ugly.
I'd love to have an HK USC, but the cost of admission is a bit much.
I've always thought a redesigned M1 Carbine in 9mm, 10mm, or .45ACP would be a pretty sweet carbine... sort of a retro- but new-and-improved version of the Marlin CC.
I'm also considering an AR PCC build, but that will require some research because all I ever see is negative feedback, mostly, on those.
There are reasons for them, there are reasons against them... you pays your monies, you takes your chances. I guess it really depends on why you want it...
Your suspicion is way, way off. I do a lot of indoor shooting. Shotguns are abusively loud indoors. Some pistol rounds are so quiet out of carbines that many shot timers won't pick them up unless they are held very close.
Chuck R.
Member
I predominately run 147s in my 9mm AR and often have that issue with guys that aren't use to timing me. On one stage my time was under 1/2 of the average turned in! Was pretty psyched, till we realized that my round count was under 1/2 of those turned in and my last shot was one of those missed.
A subsonic 147grn just isn't very loud out of a 16" tube.
somethingbenign
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My local range is buck and slug only. Birdshot has a tendency to bounce off the backstop and hit shooters on the line. Not enough energy to cause injury at that point (I suppose and unprotected eye maybe) but really annoying and promotes negative stories, "don't got to X range, I got hit by a ricochet there." I think anything larger than 1 won't bounce but more shooters understand buckshot is different vs the difference between 7.5 and 2 shot.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Like others have mentioned, of the indoor ranges around here that let you shoot shotguns, some allow buckshot but all allow slugs. None of them allow birdshot.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I shoot in a steel league, and the average PCCs are typically a couple of seconds behind the sponsored shooters with race guns. So definitely easier and faster to shoot than pistols.
As far as reliability, yeah, there seems to be more malfunctions in PCCs assembled by the end user. Complete guns from the manufacturers, not so much. I seem to continue my good luck with firearms, I bought a CMMG in 45ACP, and it functions with anything I shoot through it, with or without a silencer. It was kind of pricey.
The indoor range I go to allows rifles and shotguns (slug and buck only), and those things are LOUD, even with doubled up ear protection. The PCCs are as quite or quieter than handguns.
The PCCs are just a lot of fun to shoot, and will go through ammo faster than any centerfire handgun or rifle.
As far as reliability, yeah, there seems to be more malfunctions in PCCs assembled by the end user. Complete guns from the manufacturers, not so much. I seem to continue my good luck with firearms, I bought a CMMG in 45ACP, and it functions with anything I shoot through it, with or without a silencer. It was kind of pricey.
The indoor range I go to allows rifles and shotguns (slug and buck only), and those things are LOUD, even with doubled up ear protection. The PCCs are as quite or quieter than handguns.
The PCCs are just a lot of fun to shoot, and will go through ammo faster than any centerfire handgun or rifle.
Spug
Member
I like pump actions too. I find that the forward stroke when chambering a round helps to point and steady the gun. I've got a Remington 870 and a couple of Rossi clones of Winchester gallery guns, like the ones they used to have at fairs. For me, keeping that front site on the target is easier with those than it is with lever actions (though I do love levers too).
I considered the Uberti Lightning, but I've heard some less than enthusiastic reports. In pictures, it also looks like the forestock/action handle is kind of set back a little closer than I would probably like, but I've never held one. Might get a Remington 760 sometime, but that's no pistol caliber carbine.
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