Zeroing Leupold MK4 10x40mm M3

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dodging230grainers

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I am considering buying this scope for my Savage 11G .308:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=948263

I plan to shoot 168gr BTHP out of my Savage's 22" barrel, so that should match perfectly with the .308 BDC turret that comes with the Leupold, right?

Now, to zero the scope, do I simply zero the "1" on the elevation knob at 100 yards, and then all the other elevation settings fall into place?

Do i need to "zero" windage? I am very new to long range shooting.

Also, any reviews/opinions of the scope itself would help, as it would set me back about $1,300.

thanks!
 
Anyone?

Also, given that a BTHP 168gr@2650fps is probably one of the most common target loads fired, has anyone got a system for zeroing the center of the crosshairs at a certain range, and then given the known trajectory of the round, the mild dots underneath can be used for holdover?

I.E. Say the center is zeroed at 500 yards, and the first vertical dot can be used to shoot 100 yards, then the next one down 200 yards, then the dot below the center is 600 yards, etc...?
 
I have the 3.5-14x50, it is definitely a great scope. If you know the amount of drop at the different yardages then you can zero "0" at 100yd or even 50yd. You would just have to calculate the inches from there at the different yardages. If the 168gr bullet at 100yd zero drops 3.4 at 200yd and say 6.8 at 300yd you would just have to adjust the clicks through to get to the 3.4. I am not positive on 1/4" = 1" but if it does then the 3.4 would be 3 to 4 clicks. I hate to sound dumb, but I haven't shot enough with a scope to know the specifics.

This scope is still new to me as well. According to the website you can have custom turret knobs created for the exact bullet you will shoot...I.E. If your zero is 100yd then you could have the next indicator at 200yd ( no matter how many clicks) The turret would be set to the exact bullet drop of that specific bullet.

Good luck with your scope. I have been to the range once but will be going back due to changing the rings from Med to Ext High. This seems to have helped my eye relief.
 
dodging230grainers, first off I'd suggest you reconsider buying that scope from MidwayUSA. MidwayUSA has good prices for some things but not for Leupold scopes. Take a look at poor_fish on Ebay. I bought a Mark 4 from him and his prices are way better. For instance, take a look at this Leupold scope. It's not what you're planning on buying but it'll give you some idea as to his prices.

I have a Mark 4 3.5 - 10x M3 illuminated with a TMR reticle which is similar to what you're thinking of buying. I have it mounted on a Remington 700 Alaskan Ti with Mark 4 medium rings (61049) and it's an excellent scope although I had to send it back to Leupold TWICE due to dust inside/on the reticle. They fixed it under warranty and now it appears to be fine.

For this scope, you need to zero the rifle/scope at 100 yards. Zero for elevation AND windage. Don't forget that elevation adjustments are 1MOA per click!! That's a big deal compared to the M1 variants that have 1/4 MOA per click!! Windage is 1/2 MOA per click. Anyway, zero the scope then loosen the screws that hold the turret dials in place and rotate them back to zero (directly below 1 for 100 yards on the elevation dial). You'll notice that you can only rotate the elevation dial one click down. It's unlikely that after zeroing the scope you'll be able to position the elevation dial at 2 for 200 yards, 3 for 300 yards, 4 for 400 yards etc and find that you're hitting the target at the point of aim. If you wanted to have Leupold make you a custom dial (about $60), you'd need to find a load that you want to use, give them the bullet weight/type, velocity, elevation, typical temperature/humidity etc. and they'd make you a new elevation dial that would be close if you were shooting under the conditions listed.

The scope you're looking at has a TMR reticle. The marks are in miliradians. The whole point of the M3 dials is that they're quick to adjust since one click is one MOA. Once you're zeroed at 100 yards, if your bullet drop at 200 yards is 4" then two clicks will do it (it'd be 8 clicks with M1 dials!). You should read the TMR manual from Leupold that you can find HERE. There's a mistake on page 8 but it's well worth reading the manual. Page 9 has some typical holdover values for the 175 grain .308 based on a 100m zero.

:)
 
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These bullet drop compensators are more a gimmick than anything of specific utility.

If you get a miliradian scope, that is a great start. Once you have that, you can figure your hold overs or bullet flight using published ballistic coefficients, your velocity, etc. Create a holdover card and stick on your stock for ready access.

Then if you are becoming serious about long range shooting, buy a mildot master, it is a slide rule of sorts. It will assist you to determine range to the target. Once you know distance, you refer to your range card to determine come-ups. While it is mostly art, there is a degree of science in your determinations which the mildot master will assist you with.

Determining windage is perhaps the most difficult aspect of the equation, at least it is for me.

So, back to the scope, I agree with others who have suggested a different type of elevation adjustment.
 
I've got Mark 4's with the TMR and Mildot. Maybe I'm lazy but I don't turn the turrets, I just use the dots or hash marks to compensate for distance and wind. Got to know the drop of the bullet, and be able to read the wind though.

+1 for Poor Fish on ebay though, fair prices, and once in awhile they will sell something at no reserve.
 
I'm not sure I understand the question. If you start with the scope normalized then align it with the bore in the mount you should then have equal clicks L&R and all you range clicks availible.
M3ONL42LSIDE01.gif
Then you take off the turrets and fine zero at your mid range, lets say 100y, I prefer 200y but we will use 100y. Now you fire a few rounds and step the windage and range in. Replace the turrets cams setting them at you zero numbers. 100 range and 0 windage. Your cam should be good for the load. My M3 came with three cams. .223,.308 and 3006. You should be good for you come ups from then on.

Cheers
...MJ...
 
thanks for the info guys!

I actually plan on using the mi-dot reticle, I like it alot better.

your cam should be good for the load. My M3 came with three cams. .223,.308 and 3006. You should be good for you come ups from then on.
Click to expand...

MJ,
so in your experience, the default .308 cam worked well with 168gr .308 loads?


Of course I realize the cam/BDC is not perfect, so if I wanted to use the mil dots as hold over/under, how would I go about calculating that?

Can anyone do the calculations for say a 100 yard zero shooting at 200 yards just as an example for me to follow, both to calculate a mil dot holdover, and an exact click measurement?

thanks!
 
Both of mine are std. duplex reticule scopes. I'm so old school I use the cam marks and the duplex to estimate range. I have mil dot scopes and use the dots for hold over but you can get the M3 with a hold over reticule. I much prefer the #7 German post or the #32 post and fine bar. I have shot a deth valley course with pop ups on both side at all hights on the valley wall from 100 too 600 yards with the post reticule. You get busy and some times forget to change the range drum when the targets come fast. So having a mid range zero and using hold over aim points is fater with a pointer than cross hairs. Just my observation.
Yes the .308 drum is marked off for the 168g MK.

Now I must finish with this. I have one of the early Savage 110FP rifles with a mil dot Tasco SSM 10X that I use the dots as hold over points and it works fine past 325y plus I have the drums marked off at 300y,and 450y. This is one rough rig, it has stood the handling and shooting with out problems all these years. I think I finished the ranging marks in 1998 and nothing has changed. I dismount the scope before leaving the range and don't remount till just before loading the first round next time out. It's just easy to transport, clean and store the rifle that way. I carry a small (8" OAL) 4X in QD rings as a back up but have never needed it.

DSCF0001bw.gif

Cheers
...MJ...
 
Lemme make sure I got this.

Using a ballistics calculator, with a 100 yard zero firing 168@2650 with set conditions, it says at 400 yards the drop will be 2.3 Mils.

So this means at 400 yards, I use the 2nd Mil-Dot down from the center as my aiming point for the correct hold-over, right?

Or to be more exact, I can dial my elevation X amount of clicks to reach 2.3 mils. Right?
 
If you look at the dots, there is a given measurement the dot takes up, and a given measurement the space between the dot takes up. At 100 yds, the center of one mildot to the next adjacent mildot is 3.6 inches.

The dots can be used for ranging a known sized target.

Holding over or under is not as accurate as dialing the knobs, but for how and what I shoot it is accurate enough.

If your bullet drops 9.4 inches at 300 yds and you are using a 100 yd zero; divide 3.6 into 9.4 and you get 2.61 mildots.

The best thing to do is zero and shoot at known distance, make a note of the turns or holdover. The BDC would probably be very close for a given bullet at a given distance. But, you may find that if you shoot 200, 300, 400, etc it may be easier to just make a note of how many clicks per given distance.

Then write it on a sticky on the inside of the rear flip up cap for quick reference.

If you intend to shoot at longer ranges, you may want to consider a 10,20, or 30 MOA mount.

www.kenfarrell.com has good ones.

The 10, 20, 30, MOA cant gives you the ability to use more of the scopes adjustment range for elevation.
 
buy a mildot master
Click to expand...

+1 for the mildot master. It's a very handy tool to have, particularly if you don't have a laser rangefinder. I bought mine from www.ustacticalsupply.com but you can find it elsewhere too.

So this means at 400 yards, I use the 2nd Mil-Dot down from the center as my aiming point for the correct hold-over, right?

Or to be more exact, I can dial my elevation X amount of clicks to reach 2.3 mils. Right?
Click to expand...

This is what I come up with ... using ballistic tables from Sierra, a 168gr SMK HPBT moving at 2600 fps at the muzzle zeroed at 100 yards will drop about

2.3" @ 200 yards
5.4" @ 300 yards
8.7" @ 400 yards
12.8" @ 500 yards
18.1" @ 600 yards

Using the MilDot Master, at 400 yards with a drop of 8.7" you need to make a 2.1 MOA adjustment with the elevation dial (i.e. two clicks is all you can do since three would be 3 MOA) or 0.6 Mil holdover with the reticle. This is where the speed of M3 dials is less desirable than the accuracy of the M1 dials with their 1/4 MOA adjustment.

Bear in mind that you mentioned a muzzle velocity of 2650 fps, I had to interpolate to calculate the bullet drop at 400 yards, and the values read off the MilDot Master are approximate.

Don't forget, the scope adjustments for elevation and windage are in MOA whereas the reticle is in Milirads. The reason for this is that a MOA is a smaller unit than a miliradian. At 100 yards, a MOA is approximately 1" whereas a miliradian is 3.6"!!

It just occurred to me that you can think of the elevation dial as having 1/4 Mil adjustments since 1MOA is 0.28 Mils. So in this scenario, you want 0.6 Mils and two clicks would be 0.56 Mils which might be close enough. Anyway, just a thought.

:)
 
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So am I wrong in saying that with, say, a 2.3" mil drop at 400 yards, I would use the 2nd mil dot down from the center as my aiming point at 400 yards?

right or wrong?
 
2.3" mil drop at 400 yards
Click to expand...

I think you have a typo there ... you have 2.3" mil drop. If your bullet drops 2.3 miliradians at 400 yards (33.1") then YES, you could hold the second mil dot down from center on the target but you'd still be 0.3 miliradians off or 4.3" which may or may not be important.
 
Yeah, thats what I meant, 2.3 Milliradians.

Isn't the easiest (or the only) way to aim using a holdover to calculate milliradian drop and use the mils as aiming point?

Also, with holdovers, with a 100 yard zero, the milliradians above the center of the reticle will never be used, right? (considering from 0-100 yards you just aim and fire)
 
Isn't the easiest (or the only) way to aim using a holdover to calculate milliradian drop and use the mils as aiming point?
Click to expand...

I would agree with that since the reticle is marked in miliradians and holdovers would be calculated by converting bullet drop in inches to miliradians.

Also, with holdovers, with a 100 yard zero, the milliradians above the center of the reticle will never be used, right? (considering from 0-100 yards you just aim and fire)
Click to expand...

For all practical purposes this is true. Are you familiar with Point Blank Range, Maximum Point Blank Range and Maximum Point Blank Range Zero? For a 168 gr SMK HPBT with a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps, the MPBR is 315 yards with a zero at 265 yards. The theory is that you don't have to make any adjustments with the scope or point of aim from 0 yards to 315 yards and your bullet won't deviate more than +/- 5" (in elevation) from the point of aim. This may be sufficient for many hunters.

:)
 
The MBPR of 265 yards sounds good, but I think maybe a 5" variation might be too much for precision shooting, which is the function of this rifle.

I'll probably leave it zeroed at 100, which means using the center crosshair for 0-100, and the lower milliradians for holdover.

(or of course using clicks if extreme precision is needed)
 
The MBPR of 265 yards sounds good, but I think maybe a 5" variation might be too much for precision shooting, which is the function of this rifle.
Click to expand...

In that case I'd suggest you buy a scope with 1/4 MOA elevation and windage dials such as the Mark 4 10x40mm LR/T M1. The dials are a lot taller but you get finer adjustments. One click equals 1/4" at 100, 1/2" at 200, 3/4" at 300 and 1" at 400 yards. The TMR or Mildot reticle uses the same miliradian scale so if holdover is your intention it won't make a difference which one you buy. I have a Mark 4 3.5 - 10X M1 Front Focal Plane scope on my AR which is good for estimating range quickly since I can range at any magnification.

:)
 
The Leupold scope in question is marked in 100m increments from 100m to 1000m. (says so in the description) I believe M3 turrets are .5 moa per click elevation, but for a given distance, you can just turn it up to the range that your target is at.

Yes, you will have to zero and conduct windage adjustments. ( this is an art at distance.)

The Mildot Reticle or TMR are used for range estimation. Yes, you can kentucky windage it in if you wish, but it is not as precise and you won't have the results in the second shot. the M3 reticle is made for this... If you spend the money, try using it the way it was designed.

If you know the distance, you can just dial it in. Range estimation is as much of an art as reading the wind.

Don't cut corners on rings and bases. Get good steel high quality parts and you will never regret it. +1 -20min bases... most name brand bases have this option. +1 mildot master... range estimation without batteries.

The Leupold is top shelf. I don't regret buying it, I'm working on justifying another one. Five Stars. Nightforce and IOR also good value... IOR has 35mm tubes ++ and I believe a 40mm tube, but rings are harder to choose. If price is no object, look at US Optics.:rolleyes: These are Awesome!

good luck!
 
The Leupold scope in question is marked in 100m increments from 100m to 1000m. (says so in the description)
Click to expand...

Ummm ... no, the BDC dial is marked in 100 YARD increments from 100 to 1000 (represented by the numbers 1 through 10).

I believe M3 turrets are .5 moa per click elevation
Click to expand...

Again .... no, M3 dials allow for 1 MOA elevation and 1/2 MOA windage adjustments

Mark 4 10x40mm LR/T M3

:)
 
Dodging,
My scope is 50mm. I wouldn't see any reason the medium rings wouldn't work well. With the 50mm and medium rings the base of the objective was touching the barrel. Good luck.
 
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