Zombies are invading... our shooting culture!?

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I dont mean to harp on this or offend anyone but... Do we as shooters really think that the few outspoken, pro-gun elected officials that we have want to appear to the rest of their non-shooting constituents like they represent a bunch of zombie-shooting, mall ninjas?? There are activities that when viewed from an insider’s perspective may be perfectly innocent and harmless or even “normal” but when viewed from an outside perspective look highly questionable. Our gun rights often times hang perilously on the perception of the non-shooting public, voters and our elected representatives. Firearm and ammunition manufacturers as well as shooters can't afford to look “questionable”. Guns are "fun" but anything that can end a life at the push of a "button" or trigger is serious business whether it’s fun or not. Like it or not, what the non-shooting public, voters and elected officials think matters and Hornady giving the antis “ammunition” to potentially use against use in the future is irresponsible. I wish the reality of the situation was otherwise but it is not… JMHO...
 
I think the idea of the zombie shoots sound somewhat entertaining. I do however think this is pushing it over the line, why ruin a fine piece of history by making it a cosmetic silly looking gun?
Oh well, to each their own.
 
I hate to say it, but most people who are ANTI I know are way more scared of a guy with a "proper" Remington 700 sitting in a tree all day and shooting something from 500 yards than they are scared of a bunch of people on Mary's Peak laughing as they pop some melons, pumpkins and sombie targets with their trickedout uber assault rifles and Glocks.
But I am also sure none of this will ever get through to a true fudd who has decided we're not allowed to have fun with these DEADLY TOOLS of KILLING.
This culture of actually taking lives is much more talked about in the surplus circles, where "this rifle killed well over a platoon of Nazis and Herman Goehring himself whizzed three feet from it" or in hunting circles where "I can see a hippie from thre miles out with this scope."
I can honestly not say I have ever heard anyone being offended by "my rifle has popped thirteen pumpkins and six salad heads."

It IS all about perspective, and I am starting to think a lot of these SERIOUSNUSINESS types when it comes to guns have totally lost perspective on why the US has so many guns. I assure you it's not for serious purposes. Guns have killed a lof more cans, veggies, funny paper targets and fruitthan they ever have killed government officials, looters, criminals and deer, which a lot of types think is why people own them.
Remember, no matter how well meaning you are. If you denounce someone's way of enjoying the shooting sport safely you're saying the same thing as our dreaded Bradys. That only people who use them in veryspecific ways should have them, and that any usage outside of very certain parameters is wrong.
 
Wait, you think the anti's actually pay any attention to what we, the shooting community, actually does? They don't. It's much easier to rely on Google to do their research for them, or just make stuff up as they go along. I mean, otherwise, how could they possibly consider decades old Garands and M1 carbines to be dangerous assault weapons, and their re-importation should be banned? We're not dealing with logical, rational people who actually pay attention to what's really going on.

So far, checking the latest Brady bunch rants and lunatic ravings, zombies have yet to make the list of things the anti's are afraid of. In fact, they seem to be missing the boat on all the fun, fantasy world elements of the shooting community at large.

Sad thing is, we're doing half of their work for them.
 
The antis aren't really the ones we need to worry about... No one is going to change their minds or convince them to reconsider the facts... The battle is for the neutrals... the undecided... Their support or opposition can change like the wind...
 
You know, most gun neutral folks I've met couldn't care less about the arguments one way or the other. They are not the enthusiasts we are. Many neutrals I know own guns, but rarely shoot them. They keep them for emergency purposes only. My mother is a gun owning neutral. She has a few guns, almost never shoots, and while she enjoys it once in a blue moon, she's not going to shoot for the sake of shooting very often on her own. She couldn't care less about cowboy action shooting, zombie targets, or pizza shaped guns in the elementary school cafeteria. Nor does she care about banning high capacity magazines, semi auto military style rifles, or anything else. My brother is another neutral. He does not own guns, but generally takes the same attitude as my mother. I know plenty of people who are not gun enthusiasts. They don't listen to the propaganda coming from either side. I think a lot of times we gun enthusiasts get all worked up over nothing, just like the anti's are getting themselves all worked up over nothing. Both sides have the tendancy of blowing the issues out of proprotion, if you ask me. Most fence sitters are quite comfortable where they are, and I know more than a few who just want to be left alone in comfort, both sides be damned.
 
RhinoDefense said:
The original use of zombies on the gun forums dates back to the early 90s and the discussion of lethal force in self defense. The admins of many boards were very cautious to be mentioning and discussing the taking of a human life, even in self defense. This was right after the Clinton AWB and during the time when shall issue concealed carry was gaining popularity among states. In order to have the freedom to discuss lethal self defense without being poster boys for the anti gun crowd to showcase, we collectively use the term "zombie" to represent the criminal in question; ie "if you're walking your dog at night and a zombie jumps out of the bushes demanding money at knifepoint, what do you do?" kind of stuff. We knew what it represented but anyone not "in the know" figured we were goofing around and it didn't raise eyebrows of Internet censors.

With the crap that's been happening in Hollywood and with marketing firms, it's lost its original meaning. Now it's a fad that will die out.
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Hey, thanks, that was enlightening. This thread sort of has a life of its own, I really gained something from it. I sort of thought that the origin of the word had to do with something like you mention (with respect to online discussions). But I always thought it was in the light of a Katrina incident. When things get bad you tend to protect your own group. Just like in the military. For instance, calling the enemy "they" is no more different than "zombie" really. You've removed the human aspect from the enemy and that makes them eaiser to kill. This is important to remember when introducing YOUNG shooters, like 8yo for instance (my age when I got my first shotgun). You don't want to do this to children --it is the reason why child soldiers work so well in the 3rd world. They are impressionable and take data easily, and they can be very fierce, they have that young spark but it has been kindled into hell. In fact, there was an article written by my Stryker unit's commander on how to make it easier to kill child soldiers, and basically it came down to removing the face from the enemy and not viewing them as children. Nasty, nasty stuff.

NOW. That is part of the reasoning of this thread. To take new shooters and introduce them by making it fun (and come on, the new shooters I'm talking about are young, so keep it fun!) is important, but in the same light, they have to learn that it IS a deadly weapon, and that killing zombies in a game or on a range isn't anything close to reality.

I also believe that we underestimate our younger generation. I felt very underestimated as a kid. I was told things on television weren't for real, that it was make believe, and I remember thinking to myself, "is my mom serious? Does she really think I can't tell the difference?" But I was also allowed to watch "scary" movies at a young age. When I demonstrated that I knew the difference, I was treated differently across the board.

That is important to keep in mind. Demonstration of maturity. It would be wrong to take an underdeveloped child and put them in a "combat simulator" that a popup moving target range is intended to be and have that as their introduction. That could spark motivation and fantasy about killing, paricularly in a child that may have mental unstability towards violence.

No, I firmly believe that a new CHILD shooter's introduction should be the same as mine --an airgun or a .22. Fundamentals. But once the child is mature in mind, why not make it fun? And for young college students who we obviously underestimate, they know the difference anyway, so shooting zombies won't make any difference, but it will make it fun.

I'll bring up another idea though. Take for instance that we DO take it under our wing and legitimize it, then they become popular. It would belie statistics to think that eventually someone who shoots zombie shoots ends up killing another person. Either in defense or murder. Obvioulsy the prosecution will bring that up and that will look bad, but is it? Is it any more pertinent in a defensive shooting case than the calibre of the weapon used? I suppose it could be used to indicate the state of mind of the individual or capacity, but how so?

For instance, we were told in the army at Ft. Benning in a big auditorium by a JAG officer that once we underwent infantry training that it would forever be used against us in any court case where we were under suspicion of violence. The old "kung fu makes you a deadly weapon" arguement. Which I think is totally false, but when it is used deceptively and the jury buys it... You get the picture.

I also recall a law that says it is illegal to shoot pictures of the president. I also recall hearing that it was extended to pretty much all politicians. I think this is unfortunate, from a mature standpoint you can exercise immaturity in jest and pleasure --provided it doesn't hurt others. Horseplay and practical jokes are an example.

I also recall as a child patterning shotguns using newspaper. My dad LOVED to shoot the pages that had Kadafi and that ****** in Iran --not the nut that thinks the holocaust didn't happen, but the other one. He got a kick out of it, and I bet it never crossed his mind what his 8yo thought. What did I think?

I thought we were patterning our shotguns for upcoming turkey season and that newspapers were a logical choice for cheap paper of appropriate size. The fact Kadafi or the other guy were on it wasn't really something I thought of until now.

Were I involved in a defensive situation and called into question, to have the fact I used Kadafi as a target as an 8yo held against me is absurd.
 
Strykervet,

That was very well thought out. I have always enjoyed (and I think most of us have) shooting things like pumpkins, or anything else like that goes splat. I also remember shooting newspaper as well and enjoying it.

But, I feel deep down that shooting pictures of humans can desensitize people and I just don't see any good coming from it.

I'm all for anyone who wants to join the shooting community doing so, but don't you think it would be better to shoot at old produce and say that represents a zombie.
 
CZguy,

Desensitization is an odd thing - both the taboo and the acceptance of violence are fantasies conjured by society, peer pressure, and learned behavior.

In other words, the feelings which we would be "desensitized" from are nothing more than mental taboos erected over the course of our lives by our ethical upbringing, religious instruction (if any), peer pressure, and other assorted devices.

I believe if man were left to his own accord - raised in isolation - we would have no such predilection either for, or against violence. I believe violence itself has really only been truly taboo'd - "sensitized" - in the last couple of hundred years (at an increasing pace).

Consider that we've had past presidents engage in duels of honor - and as late as one hundred years ago ALL "modern" societies and civilizations recognized the value of "honor duels", from the far east to the mid east... Yes, the prohibition on violence truly is a modern invention.

Not that it's a bad thing.

But to argue that shooting a paper target that is a picture of a human could desensitize us (keeping in mind that the "sensitized" portion is a wholly unnatural state, hence, "de-" is the REMOVAL of that training to be sensitized).. I don't think so. Otherwise we'd have ten thousand school shootings a day - in just a few months time, EA games has reported there's been over 325 *million* combat deaths one of their online war games - very graphic, very intense, very realistic in sound and video.

Yet, my kids seem rather well adjusted despite all of the violence they're exposed to on TV, in games, etc.

I'm hoping that by being "desensitized" - if that is what they are - will be valuable some day if they have to defend themselves. I wouldn't want them to hesitate and get killed because they were afraid of how bad they might feel the next day for what they'd done. I want them sucking air and living life the next day.

Zombie targets, heck, if my kids get bored with paper and want to move on to something like that, I see no reason against it, none whatsoever.

And bad guys.. they don't look like round circles. When I practice shooting deer, I use a big deer poster. Turkey, same thing.

IPSC/IDPA targets are human profile for a reason.
 
IPSC/IDPA targets are human profile for a reason.
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USPSA and IDPA are human profile - IPSC targets (which are legal at USPSA matches - a club near me sets up at least one stage with them every match) are actually intentionally non-humanoid and are often jokingly called "turtle targets" :)

Classic-target.png
 
Posted by Zoogster:

I dislike the zombie stuff.
I think it seems similar to enabling or encouraging the mentality of spree shooters, and gives an overall immature image.
I guess that is what you get now that guns are a lot more mainstream after the last couple years, a much higher percentage of the public is part of the gun culture than before.

I notice zombies in most media are slow, dumb, attack in large numbers, lack strategy, and essentially mindlessly go in the direction of someone.
Mowing them down is easy and requires little skill, the only chance they have of defeating someone armed is overwhelming them in large numbers after dozens are mowed down.
They are easy targets, they don't shoot back, and quite frankly appeal to someone that doesn't want to actually engage something that fights back effectively, even in fantasy.
Another armed threat certainly takes more skill than a typical zombie, and even your old alien or other sneaky or fast monster is a far more capable and challenging adversary than your typical zombie.

They are like unarmed dehumanized people, acceptable to slaughter in as large a number as possible by being made grotesque.


While I know most people can differentiate fiction and real life, I don't like popularizing shooting massive numbers of unarmed humanoids. It seems too close to the mentality of some mentally unstable person opening firing on people they have dehumanized and don't see as humans beings but as targets.
On top of that the gore of the zombie, which are bloody human beings with signs of serious injury or other gore desensitizes one to the gore of a human being that has suffered serious injury.
Does this desensitize someone creating such gore shooting real people?
One must ask what the psychology is behind the appeal of shooting massive numbers of targets that pose no real challenge and walk or run towards you unarmed. Reviling in the killing and gore the zombie represents.
The appeal seems to be to those that want to shoot fish in a barrel as the saying goes, but want those fish to be as close to human beings as possible, combined with a lot of gore, and made acceptable because they are ineffectively trying to do you harm.
Sure it is just fiction and most people differentiate that from reality, but some people are also psychologically immature and the distinction between reality and fiction is not as great. Especially if the fiction is closer to something real.


Many of the zombie media also pits some group against what is essentially the world. Its them against the world, the world being a bunch of zombies.
It seems a lot like a mentality someone like the shooters of Columbine would have. Outcasts that band together and use violence to kill large numbers of defenseless unarmed people, people that they have allowed themselves to see no empathy for, dehumanized them. Like zombies are dehumanized human beings.


All in all while I can certainly appreciate various Apocalyptic fiction, and certainly there may be an additional appeal to someone into firearms or an Apocalyptic scenario best resolved with firearms. However I must question how healthy combining a zombie and shooting culture is.
What small percentage of that culture combination may be closer to doing something horrible because of it?
Lets keep shooting something professional and wholesome. If you want casual and fun there is plinking, reactive targets, and a host of entertaining things.
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I respect the varied and thoughtful opinions about the Zombie topic, but I feel that Zoogster encapsulates my thoughts well. Now I think I have a good sense of humor so I'm not a stick in the mud; and the correlation to actual survival plans in a true apocalypse is a bit of a stretch, but still stimulating nonetheless. In the end...I wish the Zombies would amble away from the shooting community and be relegated to film, TV, comic books or videogames.
 
The zombie fad is just this era's version on the alien/monster fad of the 50's. What were people worried about then? Communists and nukes. What are people worried about now? Terrorists and viruses and domestic/world economic collapse (essentially the collapse of modern civilization.) Zombies are just a way for people to express their fears.
I enjoy watching zombie movies. I would like to read a good zombie book. Have I daydreamed about scenarios where zombies or bandits have tried to break into my dwelling? yes. Do I think it could happen? Zombies. no. Bandits after a mass viral outbreak? absolutely yes. I won't buy a gun specifically to deal with that situation (the bolt action rifles or shotguns or handguns I already have will do for any situation) but I may buy a box or two of the zombie ammo just for kicks/future collector value.
 
The zombie fad
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I think it's taken roots a bit too much to be called a fad at this point. Zombies (and interest in the genre) isn't some new thing at all. This "fad" was kicked off 43 years ago with the original Night of the Living Dead and has been gaining popularity ever since. I myself for example am 30 years old, and I can't remember a time when zombies weren't a big thing. I watched all of Romero's movies and all the other less polished movies inspired by him. Growing up I played virtually every Resident Evil game that came out. Pretty much every other person I know of my age grew up with this genre and has been a fan for all their lives.

Some of it may just be that people who grew up with then genre are simply now getting into a position where they can afford some toys. Again, it goes back to a comparison with cowboy action shooting. The people who grew up watching spaghetti westerns started that because they wanted to have fun. The people who grew up watching zombie films now are also having some fun on the range. One group wants to emulate Matt Dillon, the other Rick Grimes, but both groups are just having fun and hurting no one.
 
While I know most people can differentiate fiction and real life, I don't like popularizing shooting massive numbers of unarmed humanoids.
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Different folks get their fun in different ways. Maybe some guys want to build and decorate expensive zombie guns and pop zombie shaped targets. It's not my thing, but it's fine with me.

Other folks find or build expensive Civil War gun reproductions, wear uncomfortable authentic uniforms, camp in canvas tents, eat hardtack and beans and line up to pretend to shoot and be shot by their fellow Civil War re-enactors. That's not my thing, either, but it's fine with me.

Your harmless hobby is your business.
 
I think this all just sounds like good fun.
I've shot zombie targets on occasion, and I enjoy the movies.
I think looking at it as an exercise in dehumanization is probably looking to far into it. I don't see this funded by conflict minerals, and I don't see folks forcing kids to do a ton of drugs and go shoot the zombies, so I don't see the the connection between this and child soldiers. I just see a good time, and folks who have created a new niche in the small world of firearms ownership.

I also think once we divide our community just because we think a group in it is having the wrong kind of fun, we make it easier to regulate, and freedom is even cooler than zombies.
 
its just a navalty good lord

See its all for fun. More ppl. Are killed every year in auto,plane or other type of accidents single out to each one than in shooting sports,accidents,or murder combined. GET OVER IT. good lord.
 

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They should make Hitler targets. That's probably as close to a universally acceptable humanoid target as we'll ever get. I'm sure it would offend someone though. Maybe Satan targets?
 
My 8 year old son plays Call of Duty and has belt fed Nerf guns. His favorite thing to do is to sneak around the corner and shoot me when I don't see it coming. Yes, I die in a grotesque and overly dramatic fashion every time.

But, when I take him shooting for real, he has his head in the right place. Safety first. He knows The Four Rules, and taught them to a first timer we took out (who was 34 years old). It seems that when an 8 year old tells you to, "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch...," it sticks.

With all the rules I give him, he's given me two:
1 - No head shots on real people.
2 - No pets than can eat us.

He knows the difference between tv / video games and real life. I don't buy the desensitization arguement. For the rest: You pick your targets and I'll pick mine. I figure anything that gets more people shooting responsibly is a good thing. There isn't a media outlet that won't sensationalize anything as long as they think they'll get ratings out of it.

Face it: Some guns *are* toys. As well as some cars, most boats & airplanes, knives, parchutes, climbing gear, etc...
 
Some people need to settle down. It ain't hurtin nothin. Shooting zombies at the range will not cause anyone to fly off the handle and commit a crime. Blaming video game violence, movies, shootin the wrong types of targets, etc. is just a weak excuse.
 
I have said it in the past if violent television (80's cartoons especially) violent music (everything from horrorcore and gangsta rap to death metal) and violent video games (I was raised in the Mortal Kombat era) caused people to be violent sociopathic monsters then I should be everyones worst nightmare... but here I sit as a responsable adult with a clean criminal record and no history of violence and no signs of mental breakdown or social disorder

that being said I LOVE ZOMBIES
I did not start shooting because of some fabled zombie apocalypse but I have indulged in the Z Day fantasy a time or two
face it people its fun to do
the SASS shooters do it and lets be realistic thats more john waynes influence than any real cowboy
the war re-enactors do it again probably more john wayne than the real face of war

I would put dollars down that most people you here talking about "self defense shooting" is brought on more often than not because they idolize Masaad Ayoob or Bill Jordan even Jeff Cooper not because they truelly believe that at every corner and at every living moment someone is out to get them (be true to yourself if your seriously like THAT get help thats paranoia)
I take my defense seriously I practice hard to get the most out of my defensive arms and I take THAT time very seriously
but I also have fun
I plink cans I shoot bottles and silly targets I even once drug a recliner and TV out to my personal range just so I could pretend I was elvis with .357 and shoot the TV
Ive shot IDPA targets 100 200 300 500 600 yard targets human targets silhouette targets zombie targets golf balls beach balls a large blueprint printer a firesafe old toys you name it ive probably shot at it

the zombie thing isnt going anywhere anytime soon
its atracting new shooters HOURLY
and bad news guys... its going to be our job to get them off on the right foot with shooting and to do it safely and properly and still be FUN
I bet your parents thought you were completly off your rockers when you wanted to strap on a wheel gun and go shoot at indians but they accepted you and your fantasy the least we can do is accept the next generations otherwise shooting as we know it may die out forever because lets face it why pay $600 for a handgun when you can pay $70 and shoot 50 different guns in Call of Duty
 
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