Carrying a 1911 without the safety on?
- Thread starter CPshooter
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Well thats the funny thing about the military manual, it doesnt tell you how to carry the gun!!! It tells you about C1 and C2, but never mentions any other way of carry'n it!!!! LOL! I guess even the US Military has this arguement on how it should be carried.
You have to consider the purpose for which the manual was written. Different manuals = different purposes.
I deduce that the primary purpose behind publishing a manual which says to never carry a 1911 in condition one is to avoid liability.
The writings of Jeff Cooper seem to have the purpose of expressing the truth as he saw it. His primary objective was to see what worked best under what he considered "real world" scenarios and teach that which worked.
You may note that I refer Jeff Cooper or Gunsite (more properly known as the American Pistol Institute) in several of my postings. This is because I admire the man and his writings.
Also if you look at WWI threw Vietnam millitary holsters, The flap hoslter will permit any condition of carry. However if you look at Pre-WWI and any US military shoulder holster they all have retention straps that would go across the back of the pistol hence dis-engageing the grip safety. So one could assume C2 or C3 only in those type holsters.
I dont think any modern holster offers anytype of good retention of the 1911 because they either have No thumbrake or a thumbrake that is in front of the hammer. This does not include the new serpa holster that locks the trigger guard.
I will admit that I have a belt slide for my 1911 and I am looking into a new TripleK holster with a thumbrake though..
But based on Military holsters of the time of 1905 to today, I can only deduce that the military preferred C2 or C3. Put your self in the mind-set of a tanker or pilot wearing an M3 or M7 shoulder rig, would you carry it C1? Or a Horse mounted soldier, would ya really want to fall off a horse in C1?
But I never rode a horse to my local store, and well my car is a tank compaired to those modern cars! LOL!
I dont think any modern holster offers anytype of good retention of the 1911 because they either have No thumbrake or a thumbrake that is in front of the hammer. This does not include the new serpa holster that locks the trigger guard.
I will admit that I have a belt slide for my 1911 and I am looking into a new TripleK holster with a thumbrake though..
But based on Military holsters of the time of 1905 to today, I can only deduce that the military preferred C2 or C3. Put your self in the mind-set of a tanker or pilot wearing an M3 or M7 shoulder rig, would you carry it C1? Or a Horse mounted soldier, would ya really want to fall off a horse in C1?
But I never rode a horse to my local store, and well my car is a tank compaired to those modern cars! LOL!
notorious
Member
Military manuals are also written for the lowest denominator to prevent those who are not lifelong shooters from handling a cocked and locked pistol during the stress of combat. Not everybody is a Jeff Cooper disciple or was born with a 1911 in their diaper.
notorious
Member
I don't know about the rest of the country, but I wasn't born with a 1911 tucked in my diapers, Mexican-carry.
I had a Winchester 94 under my pillow instead.
I had a Winchester 94 under my pillow instead.
She lied to me!!!!!!notorious
Member
Well... the way the country is going, your baby has to first survive state sponsored and subsidized abortion by the Family Planning freaks and then go through the registration and qualification and background checks before he can apply for the permit to get a 1911 and then maybe he can buy one to tuck in his diapers. Even then, the anti-gun babies will just protest his crib until he moves to another section of the maternity ward that is more pro-gun.
LOL!
Hey I have kinda a OT question, I have a NY and PA carry permit and I never needed to take any qualification classes.......What is every one talking about? do some states make you take classes for a permit? I was however an instrutor but that was a long time ago.
Hey I have kinda a OT question, I have a NY and PA carry permit and I never needed to take any qualification classes.......What is every one talking about? do some states make you take classes for a permit? I was however an instrutor but that was a long time ago.
notorious
Member
I believe Utah and Florida have CCW classes that is mandatory before they will issue. Nevada didn't use to have a class but they did require you to go to a range and shoot a qualifying score before they will issue.
CA does not require classes or qualifications but you do have to donate $5k minimum to the local sheriff for his election fund. (at least that is the local rule for SoCal)
CA does not require classes or qualifications but you do have to donate $5k minimum to the local sheriff for his election fund. (at least that is the local rule for SoCal)
Ah now I got it, I've always wondered what the hell people were talking about with these classes. I use to me an instructor back in NY, but most if not all the people in my classes already had permits or just got them and they wanted to know about Firearms Safety, but it was not a requierment nor was it reported to the state. It was just something my range offered people to promote safety.
I didnt know it was required in some states. Guess NY wasnt that bad after all....well ok it was bad, flat out sucked! But it is a pretty state.
Now back to 1911's
I just yelled at the wifey, about babies and 1911's, she just laughed at me!
I didnt know it was required in some states. Guess NY wasnt that bad after all....well ok it was bad, flat out sucked! But it is a pretty state.
Now back to 1911's
I just yelled at the wifey, about babies and 1911's, she just laughed at me!
Dang! When I made this thread, I should have known it would be a hot topic of discussion!
I've read every post, and now I don't feel so bad about thinking C0 is ok. Looks like everyone has an opinion, and in the end I believe the 1911 is a safe design, no matter how it is carried. This, of course, is assuming the operator is VERY mindful of what they are doing at all times.
However, I don't think carrying on a live round, or even worse, on an empy chamber with the hammer down is a good idea. Even with practice, this is definitely something that seems impossible to do in a pinch situation and under stress. I find that the hammer is rather difficult to manipulate in the first place. And then the thought of it slipping from my thumb is scary, even though it is highly unlikely it will ignite the primer. Either way, having a 1911 with the hammer down sounds stupid. A revolver is different, obviously, because you can still squeeze of a round with a stiff DA pull. A SAO gun w/ the hammer down is useless when SHTF.
I've read every post, and now I don't feel so bad about thinking C0 is ok. Looks like everyone has an opinion, and in the end I believe the 1911 is a safe design, no matter how it is carried. This, of course, is assuming the operator is VERY mindful of what they are doing at all times.
However, I don't think carrying on a live round, or even worse, on an empy chamber with the hammer down is a good idea. Even with practice, this is definitely something that seems impossible to do in a pinch situation and under stress. I find that the hammer is rather difficult to manipulate in the first place. And then the thought of it slipping from my thumb is scary, even though it is highly unlikely it will ignite the primer. Either way, having a 1911 with the hammer down sounds stupid. A revolver is different, obviously, because you can still squeeze of a round with a stiff DA pull. A SAO gun w/ the hammer down is useless when SHTF.
notorious
Member
The spur hammer might be tough but not the squared off commander type hammer, especially if you have an action job done.
My Para hammer is very smooth and easy to actuate. However, since it is only my range gun, not my EDC, I can't speak to how it would work in a SHTF situation.
My Para hammer is very smooth and easy to actuate. However, since it is only my range gun, not my EDC, I can't speak to how it would work in a SHTF situation.
TEDDY
Member
carry
I carried in the service,but there really is a difference.you dont need the gun ready to go you chamber one if you expect to go into combat.If you practice you can rack it as fast as needed.I use to shoot a revolver in comp.and I would single action in timed and rapid.I never had probles with cocking and with the 1911,you can rack it in a flash.now a Hi-Point is a bird of another color.
I carried in the service,but there really is a difference.you dont need the gun ready to go you chamber one if you expect to go into combat.If you practice you can rack it as fast as needed.I use to shoot a revolver in comp.and I would single action in timed and rapid.I never had probles with cocking and with the 1911,you can rack it in a flash.now a Hi-Point is a bird of another color.
FoMoGo
Member
What if one arm is disabled or you are using it to keep someone off of you while you draw?
In that instance just having to thumb off the safety and pull the trigger makes a LOT of sense.
Jim
WardenWolf
member
Honestly, it's a safe enough gun to carry locked and cocked. You MUST have the safety on, however. The 1911 has such a hair trigger that I'd never even consider carrying it without the safety engaged. Modern 1911's usually have an ambidextrous safety, and it's the most natural thing in the world to disengage it while drawing it. Don't be stupid: keep the safety on.
tipoc
Member
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Good thread.
"Back in the day" when Cooper began his career, it was fairly common to see pinned grip safeties. This was because a good many folks who went for their guns quickly did not always depress the grip safeties all the way. Nowadays safeties with "memory bumps", etc. are available so this problem can be avoided and the need for pinned safeties avoided.
Cooper felt and taught that the safest way to carry the gun so that it could be brought into action the fastest was C&L. I think he was right. It ain't Coopers fault that the skills needed to carry in other conditions (and situations sometimes make other conditions desirable) became frowned on and many instructors taught folks to fear the 1911 and anything but condition one.
The 1911 is a very versatile gun. It can be safely carried a number of ways. It can be set up for the shooters preferences. It can have a very good trigger.
It's also a gun that in MHO invites dedication to it if it is your choice for carry. Dedication means a fella won't "forget" to swipe off the safety.
For years I've carried 1911s either condition one or two. I've used condition 3 when it is called for but never for carry. I've never intentionally carried cocked but not locked. Never saw the need.
tipoc
"Back in the day" when Cooper began his career, it was fairly common to see pinned grip safeties. This was because a good many folks who went for their guns quickly did not always depress the grip safeties all the way. Nowadays safeties with "memory bumps", etc. are available so this problem can be avoided and the need for pinned safeties avoided.
Cooper felt and taught that the safest way to carry the gun so that it could be brought into action the fastest was C&L. I think he was right. It ain't Coopers fault that the skills needed to carry in other conditions (and situations sometimes make other conditions desirable) became frowned on and many instructors taught folks to fear the 1911 and anything but condition one.
The 1911 is a very versatile gun. It can be safely carried a number of ways. It can be set up for the shooters preferences. It can have a very good trigger.
It's also a gun that in MHO invites dedication to it if it is your choice for carry. Dedication means a fella won't "forget" to swipe off the safety.
For years I've carried 1911s either condition one or two. I've used condition 3 when it is called for but never for carry. I've never intentionally carried cocked but not locked. Never saw the need.
tipoc
1911 Chamber empty with safety off
My good friend who was in the MILITARY POLICE stationed in GERMANY in the 1950's, showed me how to load a round in the chamber with the safety off and the chamber empty, using the issue military leather flap holster worn on the hip. Upon drawing the pistol, turn it 90 degrees so that the but of the pistol is facing away from you and the front of it is not all the way out of the holster. Push down hard enough to push the slide all the way back and pull the pistol up out of the holster and you will find that a round has been chambered. I don't remember if he said that was the way that they were to carry it or not. This method may have been mentioned before as there are a lot of threads on this and I haven't read them all.
My good friend who was in the MILITARY POLICE stationed in GERMANY in the 1950's, showed me how to load a round in the chamber with the safety off and the chamber empty, using the issue military leather flap holster worn on the hip. Upon drawing the pistol, turn it 90 degrees so that the but of the pistol is facing away from you and the front of it is not all the way out of the holster. Push down hard enough to push the slide all the way back and pull the pistol up out of the holster and you will find that a round has been chambered. I don't remember if he said that was the way that they were to carry it or not. This method may have been mentioned before as there are a lot of threads on this and I haven't read them all.
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