Centurion Vault by Liberty Safe

[camacho]

Hey fellows,

I know there are several folks here who are expert on the topic of safes, and I would like to hear their opinion on the Centurion safe built by Liberty Safes. The following are the specs. I would appreciate your advice and expertise.

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Color: Gloss Textured Black Mar-resistant finish with Chrome plated handle and lock
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Patented 3-in-1 Flex Interior™ features adjustable shelves that can be arranged to any of three different interior configurations
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Holds up to 18 long guns or other valuables, e.g. photo albums, birth certificates, tax returns, etc.
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Plush upholstered gray fabric on interior surfaces, including the floor, door panel and ceiling provides style as well as durability
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UL Listed Sargent & Greenleaf mechanical lock with multiple Relockers to resist drilling or torching
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Key locking dial increases security for access by multiple users
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UL RSC rated 12-gauge carbon steel box with triple hard plates to protect the lock from drilling attacks
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1" thick composite fire door to resist prying and increase fire protection
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Door features four active bolts with internal hinges to eliminate tampering or torching
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Chrome plated handle and lock
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Interior dimensions: 22.5" W x 14.5" L x 57.5" H
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Exterior dimensions: 24" W x 20" L x 60.5" H
(with handle depth is 21.5")
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Total Exterior Cubic Feet: 16.8
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Weight: 400 lbs.
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Warranty: Limited Lifetime against attempted break-in and fire damage with 5-year paint and lock warranty




Fire Protection Features:

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Certified factory fire protection at temperatures up to 1200 degrees F for 30 minutes, interior temperature is no greater than 350 degrees F
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Two 5/8"-thick UL Listed fire insulation in ceiling and door and one layer on all other sides/floor including door jambs
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Top performing Palusol™ heat-activating door seal expands to 10 times its size to seal out heat and smoke

 

[CB900F]

Camacho;

This is a classic RSC, Residential Security Container. Underwriter Laboratories will not list this type of construction as a safe. Notice the "composite fire door". This means the door is not plate steel, it's a 12 gauge sheet metal wrap on some insulation. Notice it does not state the size of the hard plate, or what standard it meets. Liberty does not give the Omega Laboratories test spec's for it's containers. I do not know, but highly suspect, that Liberty owns at least a good portion of Omega. Underwriter's thermal test procedures to meet it's standard are openly published on it's web site. And if that sheet metal box is ever warped, you will deeply regret the internal hinges.

The value of this RSC is directly determined by what you pay for it. It's better than a sheet metal box, but not by much. Therefore, IMHO, you shouldn't be paying much more for it than for said box. In other words determine the protection level you need, find the RSC with the features that provide that security, & pay the least amount possible you find it for on the market. Gloss paint, decals of elk, and plush fabric do not increase the protection level.

Or, save up and buy a true safe. In which case, please let me quote.

900F

 

[camacho]

Thanks 900F,

I thought that would be the case but wanted an expert opinion. Costco has them on sale for $600 delivery included but I think I will pass.

 

[VARifleman]

CB900F and a1abdj are the true experts here on safes. I would call up either one and talk to them about your protection requirements and placement restrictions. I won't even think of buying a Liberty safe after what I've learned from them.

 

[a1abdj]

Liberty does not give the Omega Laboratories test spec's for it's containers.

Omega was a company that tested building materials, and one day started testing safes. I don't believe they are in the safe testing business anymore, and Liberty no longer touts their Omega rating.

The new big thing that Liberty wants to talk about is their BTU "rating". Don't ask me what they're talking about, because I'm a professional and I don't even know.

I do know that they contradict themselves badly in their own printed literature. Because of this, I have no doubt in my mind that they have no clue.

I wouldn't trust my valuables to a clueless company, regardless of how inexpensive it is.

 

[camacho]

Thank you all, I won't be getting the Liberty!

 

[VARifleman]

Liberty still seems to show off Omega testing as something worthwhile on their website.

http://www.libertysafe.com/fireprotection.lasso?page=6

...I just found something spouting that BTU crap though...I'm a boiler guy and I'm trying to make sense of it, but the numbers just don't work out to anything legit. Their explanation of BTU is disgusting as heat resistance isn't in BTUs as they say, but in (hr ft² *F)/Btu. That's the R value sometimes seen in insulation. The U factor seen for windows (and eventually everything goes to U) is the reciprocal of that.

 

[Ash]

Frankly, I think a real service would be to, beyond trashing the "safes" that are not safes, telling what a real fire resistant safe costs.

I have one, a Gander Mountain version. It will cover all smash-and-grab scenarios and is placed in such a way as to make attacking the door directly the only option unless walls are to be pulled out (more than that I will not say as I do not discuss security specifics of my home). I bought it because it is far better than the regular steel cabinets because the steel is thicker, will deter common thieves, and, more importantly, will do very well in a fire. Yes, placement is key here, too, and I have placed it in such a way that core fire temperature will not be a problem, even if ignition occurs. Yes, I do know the difference between safe and rsc.

Professional advice is always good. But, in this case is very biased as it does come from a man who sells safes. I mean no flame, but come on, we can have the full conversation about rsc's as well as the cost, weight, and utility of a real safe.

Ash

 

[scurtis_34471]

Let's talk cost. What is the least amount one can spend and get a real safe that can hold at least 20 long guns, at least a dozen handguns, a case or two of ammo and some accessories?

 

[a1abdj]

Frankly, I think a real service would be to, beyond trashing the "safes" that are not safes, telling what a real fire resistant safe costs.

Real UL rated (or foreign equivalent) document safes start at around $150. These safes should not be used to store firearms. There is currently no gun safe on the market that carries a UL fire rating (or foreign equivalent).

The AMSEC BF series and Graffunder safes both use true composite injection construction. This is about as close as you're going to get to a true fire rated safe. The AMSEC BF line starts in the $1,700 range. The Graffunders run a little more, but also use more steel than the AMSECs.

Professional advice is always good. But, in this case is very biased as it does come from a man who sells safes.

Most people that sell gun safes are biased, but there's a difference between myself and them. They sell safes. I sell safes, buy safes, move safes, drill safes open, work on broken safes, etc.., etc...

I am a member of major national organizations dedicated to the safe profession. I'm licensed to be in the security business, maintain certain clearances related to government work, and employ only those that have undergone complete background checks. Add to that the various types of insurance I carry, and you will see that your typical gun safe salesman won't come anywhere near my experience or qualifications.

Truthfully, I think anybody selling a security product should be licensed the same way other professions are. It's sad that your barber needs to prove their competence, but the person selling you security doesn't.

I mean no flame, but come on, we can have the full conversation about rsc's as well as the cost, weight, and utility of a real safe.

If you have any specific questions regardin the cost, weights, or utilities of various safes, I'll be happy to give you my opinion. There are so many different varieties, manufacturers, sizes, and applications, that it is impossible to discuss them unless the scope of that discussion is narrowed down.

Let's talk cost. What is the least amount one can spend and get a real safe that can hold at least 20 long guns, at least a dozen handguns, a case or two of ammo and some accessories?

New or used? What type of safe? What rating: B rate or TRTL30x6? Fire rated or plate steel? Weight restrictions? Insurance requirements?

We sell used UL TL burglar rated safes large enough for all of that running in the $2,000 to $3,000 range. New, these same safes would start in the $4,000 range. Count on another $400 +/- for delivery into a garage (too heavy for inside the house).

Even the $2,000 AMSEC BF safes will shame any of the other brand names in the same price range.

What is the least amount one can spend

This is really the root of the problem. You shouldn't be spending the "least amount" for anything related to your security. You should determine your needs, and buy accordingly, regardless of cost.

 

[Walkalong]

I just bought that same safe for loaded rounds, primers, scopes, etc. I do have a loaded Mini 14 in it. I got it with a push pad lock so I could have easy access to a loaded weapon. I can't open my other safe without glasses.

It is not all that impressive for a safe to keep weapons in. There are much better options out there, starting with Liberty's better safes. Their older safes were built much better.

 

[Ash]

Ah, but you DO know. What safe has a comparable fire rating or fire survivability expectation and capacity of a Centurion Vault.

The parameters are there. And price IS an object as folks have a budget. Spending $5,000 for a safe to protect $1,500 worth of firearms may not make any kind of sense, and considering that a Mossberg 500 at $200, a couple of 22's, a few bolt action hunting rifles, and you have a mere $1,500. Spending the same amount to protect a cherished family heirloom might.

 

[akodo]

a1abdj

you seem really knowledgable on this.

I can definately understand the inability to accurately answer unless the scope of the discussion is narrowed. The problem is, most of us are total safe morons. I think we can relate when a non-gunnie walks up and says "I got my xmas bonus check, I want to buy a gun, and take the family on a vaction, how much does a good gun cost?" we got no idea if he means a 22LR, a hunting shotgun, a self defense handgun or what.

however, I'd say any gunny who responds only with "you need to narrow the scope of your question before I can answer" wouldn't be doing much of a service to his firend ro the community. I think the best response would be to start asking questions about what exactly is desired.

I'd love to see a 'Gun safe for dummies' type post

Specifically covering which 'brand names' to stay away from and which 'brand names' (AMSEC BF series and Graffunder safes?) are a good deal.

What does the average middle to upper middle income 12 longgun homeowner need? Fire protection? (I assume yes)

right now, I have no idea the difference between "The AMSEC BF line starts in the $1,700 range" and "We sell used UL TL burglar rated safes large enough for all of that running in the $2,000 to $3,000 range. New, these same safes would start in the $4,000 range."

what is the difference between BF and TL? is that even a valid question? are we keying in on the right titles/specs/values?

All I know is one is $1,800 and one is $4000, but I think most here have no idea how much 'better' the more expensive one is.

I think this is why a lot of people don't even try, and jsut buy a gun safe at cabela's or whatever, because the clerk there is equally dumb, and goes by a little list of features, and then we look at the same list and go humm, okay!

 

[a1abdj]

Ah, but you DO know. What safe has a comparable fire rating or fire survivability expectation and capacity of a Centurion Vault.

The Centurion is Liberty's lower line, with 12 gauge steel, and a 30 minute fire rating. Just about every other company's lower line is the same. Champion's Sport series, Browning's Bronze and TheftGard, Cannon's Cannon series, etc.

There isn't much difference between them. 12 gauge is 12 gauge, and the fire board is the fire board. If this is what you decide you need, your best bet is to compare price and interior configuration, because those are the only real differences between them.

Spending $5,000 for a safe to protect $1,500 worth of firearms may not make any kind of sense,

I agree. But on the other hand, keeping $50,000 worth of guns in a $1,000 safe doesn't make sense either. However, according to these manufacturers, you're buying "bank like security" for your $1,000, and people buy them thinking they are protected.

Specifically covering which 'brand names' to stay away from and which 'brand names' (AMSEC BF series and Graffunder safes?) are a good deal.

I wouldn't say there are any to stay away from. Some of the big names have been having problems honoring their warranties when problems pop up. What I do say, is that you can usually find better options in the same price range. If you're looking to spend $2,000 on a Liberty, I can probably point you to something that is built similar for less, or something better in the same price range.

I am an AMSEC dealer (but I'm a dealer for over 30 other manufacturers as well). CB900F is a Graffunder dealer, and can answer specific questions about those. Both of these companies offer better protection than most of your "brand name" gun safe companies.

What does the average middle to upper middle income 12 longgun homeowner need?

Again, this depends. Is the homeowner worried about burglary, or just keeping the kids out? Is he keeping his wive's jewelry in the safe? What about documents and photographs? All of this will determine what a person needs.

As far as fire protection, most gun safes perform very poorly in fires when compared to their UL rated counterparts. With few exceptions (AMSEC & Graffunder), I don't have much faith in the fire protection aspect of the gun safe market.

what is the difference between BF and TL? is that even a valid question? are we keying in on the right titles/specs/values?

The BF is a model number, wheras the TL is a UL designation.

A TL-15 is a safe rated by UL to withstand a physical attack using most common tools for a period of 15 minutes. AMSEC is the only company that builds a gun safe with a UL burglary rating. Graffunder builds safes just as heavy, but they do not carry the UL rating.

I think this is why a lot of people don't even try, and jsut buy a gun safe at cabela's or whatever, because the clerk there is equally dumb, and goes by a little list of features, and then we look at the same list and go humm, okay!

I understand. I make it a point to not only answer questions on the forum, but I will also respond to e-mails, PMs, and telephone calls from forum members.

It is amazing how complex a simple steel box can be. It starts with what the person needs. The types of items they are planning on storing, the value of those items, their assessed risk of fire or burglary, and other security factors like the use of alarm systems.

From there, I ask what they are looking to spend, and can usually point them towards the best product in their price range (whether it's something I sell or not).

 

[Ash]

Yeah, but I still say safe by your terms, not an rsc. What safe would be comparable in capacity and expected survivability in a fire. So, 30 minutes and say, 24 guns.

Ash

 

[a1abdj]

Yeah, but I still say safe by your terms, not an rsc. What safe would be comparable in capacity and expected survivability in a fire. So, 30 minutes and say, 24 guns.

Any safe with a UL fire rating is going to have a minium of a 1 hour rating (except Meilink who builds a UL TL rated safe with a 30 minute rating).

Most modern safes that are designed to thwart burglary in addition to having fire protection are going to offer 2 hours of fire protection.

Because of this, there is no comparison to be made to the 30 minute safe, as you are getting many times the fire protection, let alone the burglary protection.

We sell a composite burglary/fire safe that is large enough for guns and has glass plate relockers along with a 2 hour JIS fire rating. That safe sells in the neighborhood of $2,152.

The AMSEC BF series is a "B rate light" and starts in the $1,700 range. It is built similar to the safe listed above.

Graffunder B rate safes start in the $3,000 range at full list price. I'm sure CB900F can get you a better price than that.

I could also tell you about some $15,000 safes that would fit 24 long guns, but the safes above are some good starting points.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

There is more than one standard to "rate" a safe by also. The TL/TR ratings are of physical and thermal resistance respectively. The X6 refers to the number of sides allowed to be attacked in the tests. In other words, is just the door tested, or all 6 sides.

The other major standard is of construction. That rating system starts at B on the low end and goes up through C, E, F, and beyond. For instance, an E rated unit will have a door thickness of 1.5" of solid steel, the side walls will be solid plate 1" steel. When the rate goes to F, a layer of manganese steel is laminated between the inner and outer A36 tool steel in a Graffunder. Total thickness is not appreciably increased, but the torch entry protection is substantially increased.

The two rating systems are not directly comparable, but conclusions can be drawn.

Safes cost more than RSC's. Safes give superior protection to RSC's. As I said earlier, if you can't afford a safe find the RSC's that give you the protection level you can live with & buy the least expensive one you find.

I sell AMSEC and Graffunder, I'm also a locksmith, not a bigboxstore salesman. I rather resent the opinion that all I do here is trash RSC's in order to scare people into buying product from me. If I took the profits from safe sales made on this site & matched them against the time I spend here attempting to educate people, I sincerely doubt I'm makin' gas money.

so why don't I tell you exactly what to buy? Think about it. Seriously, take some time & think about it.

900F

 

[Ash]

That is a wimpy answer. Don't pontificate. Either answer questions will alternatives or don't bother answering at all. Merely trashing a product is the easy way out.

You want me to THINK? Ah, well I have. I know the difference.

But I do not ask you what to buy. Your products have no interest to me. They are heavy and provide a level of security I frankly do not need. I will not say they are not worth the money, but I didn't ask.

But frankly, I'm pretty tired of Yoda siting in the lotus form dispensing wisdom. Either say rsc's are trash and that these are options to fill the man's need, or don't waste your time typing. If you feel there are options that are superior to the pieces of crap that are foisted on only the most ignorant and ill-informed, then by all means explain them.

Otherwise, why bother posting at all?

Again, no flames, but think about it, I mean, THINK about it.

Ash

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I, for one, greatly appreciate the time and effort spent by CB900F & a1abdj for opening my eyes on the RSC vs. A Real Gunsafe issue.

I'm not trying to bag on anyone by saying this, but there is an incredible amount of ignorance out there in regards to what constitutes a real safe.
Do a search here on THR and you will find a video of guys opening up an RSC with nothing but a crowbar and a hammer in under 10 minutes.
You'll also find pictures of an RSC opened up with nothing but a fire axe.

As has been stated repeatedly by CB900F & a1abdj, "You need to find your comfort level for security and buy accordingly" - pretty simple statement, I think - more a statement of fact than an opinion.

If you want to spend $1,000.00 on what amounts to a sheet-metal box that gives you no real fire-protection, then go ahead, it's your money, spend it as you wish - but now you know what it truly is that you are spending your money on!


You can lead a horse to water....

 

[Ash]

OR, you can cause a man to store in his closet all his firearms because he cannot afford or his house cannot support the weight of a true safe because he has been told there is no difference between a closet and a rsc (when in reality, there is). There is real fire security with these "safes" but placement is key there. Informing is a great thing. But unfortunately it seems to be more scare than anything else. An $800 rsc is a very useful container for firearms and is far better than a closet and WILL protect against smash-and-grab thieves and fire. Protection is dependent on many factors and that is conveniently ignored too many times.

Ash

 

[camacho]

he has been told there is no difference between a closet and a rsc

I think you are being a little harsh here. No one is been told that, and no one is talking about closets. As experts, they recommend what's best, and then go down the line. I would have had the same conversation if someone asked if he should buy Lorcin or Berretta 92F.

The following is a quote from CB900F:

The value of this RSC is directly determined by what you pay for it. It's better than a sheet metal box, but not by much. Therefore, IMHO, you shouldn't be paying much more for it than for said box. In other words determine the protection level you need, find the RSC with the features that provide that security, & pay the least amount possible you find it for on the market. Gloss paint, decals of elk, and plush fabric do not increase the protection level.

Both 900F and a1abdj are pointing out what RSC are and what they are not. Based on that anyone can make an intelligent choice of what to buy and if helps is needed they will both gladly talk to you. None of them said that unless you want to buy a safe they will not discuss it.

 

[ImARugerFan]

That's a good deal at $600 delivered. Check and see how far they'll carry it though, the delivery might be only to the curb, in which case you'll want a dolly and a friend there to help. I'd hop all over this deal if it's a big enough safe for you. It might not be fort knox, but it'll keep the crackheads and drunk kids out, and offer at least some fire protection. Also with a golden rod in the safe they'll all be kept nice and dry, and if you have any kids around, this safe will do a great job at securing the guns when they're too little to handle them. It depends on what you're looking for, but for most of us, I think these safes are pretty nice.

 

[Ash]

The solid door reference has come up several times in the past. Ultimately, I do nod to those who know safes best. I have yet to meet one who had anything but contempt of the "rsc". I have yet to meet a Matco man who has anything but contempt for Craftsman or Kobalt wrenches, either.

In the end, though, perhaps I did jump too harshly in this thread and for that, I'm sorry.

Ash

 

[VARifleman]

An $800 rsc is a very useful container for firearms and is far better than a closet and WILL protect against smash-and-grab thieves and fire.

Until someone carries it off while you're gone.

And the comment about a closet had the prelude of a deadbolt, good hinges and a solid wood or metal door. Not a standard residential door. I would hope that we could have an honest conversation about this topic...

CB900F and Frank have a lot of information if you will actually listen and pick up on it. If you have 2 grand in guns, you shouldn't go out and buy a TX/TL-60, but you probably shouldn't put them in a 100 dollar stack on safe either.

 

[Ala Dan]

Well, I wasn't going too chime in; but after reconsidering I think I will. As
far as RSC's, detering the "smash and grab" crowd; it depends a where
the RSC is placed in your home. Quite naturally, you would not place a
new RSC in places like your living room, family, room, or bath room for
the public (vistors-get the drift~?) too view. However, placing them
in an "off limits" bedroom (or closet) and well concealed makes for an
excellent idea. I have mine in our master bedroom; a well concealed
area, from vistors or workman who may have to enter my home. Along
with the RSC being bolted too the floor near a load bearing wall; I also
have other heavy obstacles, that would be in the way of thieves that
might try too haul the RSC off if they got it unbolted. This would also
require a good bit of time; a factor that would not be on the side of
the thieves, as there is always a family member that is well qualified
with firearms in the immediate vicinity. My other security measures,
I don't discuss on an open forum-thank you very much~!