Handling firearms in the gun store

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Quote{I get what your saying, and I am not accusing you of this. But it just seems to me that some people are way too safety concerned.} You can't get to Safety Concerned with fire arms .It should be priority #1.
 
Again Ben, I must reaffirm my opposition to purposely pointing guns at people. Again, I DO NOT do that. So there is no problem to see. It's almost like some of you want to believe that I go around saying yee haw and and seeing how many people I can tick off.

My point is that people take safety way too far with unnecessary rules and complaints. Firearm safety is not hard. It doesn't require a degree. Or asinine rules. Or jerks that think their way is better, or smarter, or safer than mine. When the clerk hands me a gun with the slide open and I see that there isn't a round in the chamber, I am not going to check 360 then make sure the muzzle never, ever sweeps anybody. That is a FAR way from aiming at someone. To tell you the truth, I spend a lot of time at the gun stores and I don't see that many people doing things differently than I do.

One more time, not saying aiming at people is okay. I hope we are clear on that.
 
Quote {If you follow a few simple rules then everything will be OK. Now with a loaded gun I am very, very safe. But when I know that gun is empty, like I just cleared it. I am not going to be all that concerned about where it is pointed. While I would not train it on anybody, at some point the barrel is going to point at somebody. Hell, even the pistols laying on the shelf at the gun store are pointing at something. People may say I am unsafe, but to me an empty gun is not dangerous} Do you know how many people have been killed by guns that the handler said was empty , until I check it my self I assume it loaded , you can't afford to think other wise . when I pick up a gun { mine or other} the first thing I do is check it!!!! I saw a guy damed Near shoot his son at the range with his so called unloaded gun, his own son said dad did you ck.it and he said its empty just before putting a 44 automag into the ground at his sons feet.
 
Further (because the horse isn't dead yet) -

When "checking out" a gun, I ask the clerk if I can dry fire it. Then I aim at the wall well over his head, close the action, sight and dry fire at the wall. Making sure there's nobody in the "path", I then drop the muzzle to the floor, open the action and set it back on the counter.

Do all the customers do this? No. The clerk seems to be happy if they don't turn around and sweep the store with it.

It's almost as if the clerks know they are going to get swept by customers. They are really, really careful to make sure they check the gun before they give it to you. And less concerned about your ability to follow the Four Rules from that point forward.

So, no, I am not happy with sloppy procedures at gun stores. But I realize that

1. All customers do not know (or care) about gun safety
2. The gun store is trying to sell guns
 
And when you set it back on the counter, which way is the muzzle pointing? Not at the ceiling. Not at the floor. Around the room, at somebody, No way around it. So, the action is open. You still just broke a safety rule. The clerk, or Sally Mainstreet, or Joe Public across the room is now being swept by your muzzle--and it is yours, since you put the gun there.
 
So, the action is open. You still just broke a safety rule.
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From my previous post -

While this might appear to be a violation of the Four Rules, the gun is essentially incapable of firing in that condition. It's about as safe as it can be done, short of disassembling it.
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The Four Rules do not apply to cased guns, guns lying on a counter, etc. Just to guns being held by a person.

As long as you can clear the gun and lock the action / bolt open before you "sweep" anyone, IMO you haven't violated the principles of the Four Rules. Of course, this isn't license to go nuts with seeing how big an arc you can sweep. Just a realization that you have now rendered the gun visibly inert. And, as a courtesy, you prove this by handing it to the clerk butt first, sweeping yourself rather than him.

As an aside, how do you clean a gun without breaking at least one of the Four Rules? Don't you just verify it is, in fact, unloaded and then just proceed with disassembly and cleaning? Many guns can't be disassembled without sweeping yourself with the muzzle.

Another example is the rules at the range I use. Rifles must have actions open, bolts out (if possible), in order for the range to be cold. Then everyone walks in front of the muzzles and changes targets.

1. There's nobody holding the rifles, though they are clearly aimed dead center at your back while you're approaching the targets.

2. The rifles are visibly inert to everyone involved. I see everyone do a visual check on all rifles before they proceed forward of the firing line.

3. If for some reason there is a shooter who isn't servicing targets, he isn't allowed at his bench until the range goes hot.
 
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Yep - they took the gun apart and put it back together. I'm sure the checked it and were sure it was safe before the fatal shot (granted, alcohol was involved, but if they followed the rules, they wouldn't be facing this tragedy.

http://www.startribune.com/local/north/133145988.html

At some point, the father continued, he and his son decided to take apart the gun and put it back together.

Alexander Bascomb gave the gun to his father, who noted the safety was off. The son responded that the safety was on and put one of his hands on the barrel.

Howard Bascomb then pulled the trigger, fatally wounding his son
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You can tell me all the stories you want of guns that people thought were unloaded that suddenly went off. I have heard a lot of stories, some recently. I don't care. They obviously didn't clear them. I just can't see a situation where I would miss a round. Again not saying point a gun at a person loaded or not, seems I really have to keep making that point clear. I check every gun I pick up, every time. Once I know it's clear I don't walk around with it with my arm at some absurd angle just so people know I am being safe. I just put my arm down and walk. When I point it, I use the wall. When I am done with it I set it down. That's how I do it and I am not changing. What is so unsafe about that?

Oh and in that story linked above, it sounds to me that they were going to take the gun apart when the shooting happened. They never actually took it apart. Also irrelevant because alcohol can make my sons power wheel deadly.
 
he and his son decided to take apart the gun and put it back together.
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But they never got that far. The accident happened first.

Obviously the Four Rules were violated. That really wasn't the point of this discussion (or so I thought).

It was what to do in a gun store.

Now, personally, I follow the same "gun store protocol" at home, as does my wife. Every single time we pick up a gun, it gets cleared (safely) before we do anything else with it.

And this includes picking it up after the other person has already cleared it.

Actions are locked open, gun gets handed across butt-first.

There's nobody around to enforce this but ourselves, but we do it every single time.

And guns which are in the process of being cleaned are treated as inert objects. Until they are reassembled. Then they get the "gun store protocol" again.

IMO, the Four Rules are very, very good. But they don't cover "administrative chores", just gun safety while you're using one.
 
dmazur,

You and I are on the same page here.

I pick up a gun, I clear it. If I put it down for a moment, and pick it up again, I clear it. Someone hands me a gun I just watched her clear, I clear it. The sole exception to that is if I pick up a gun in defense mode. But then, I'd be loaded, chambered, and ready to verify my target and, it deemed necessary, fire.

As you said, the rules apply only to a gun being held by someone. A cased gun, a gun on a bench or a counter top or a rack, a gun in a safe or a nightstand drawer, are all safe by definition until somebody reaches for them.

Similarly, a gun whose action is open cannot fire and is therefore safe. While it is vividly discourteous and generally bad form to sweep anyone with a open-action gun, it is not unsafe per se. Arguably, it can lead to bad habits, and that is a key reason why it is generally to be avoided.

The protocol you and your wife have worked out is fully appropriate and clearly safe.
 
My technique is to always point towards the ceiling when checking a bore, if without a bore light, just for a crude impression, and the ceiling lights are pretty weak in most of these low-budget gun show buildings.

I seem to be the only person who aims upwards at gun shows (?).
People are swept all the time at shows near Memphis, and shops, because to lift a gun flat on a table with people in 360 degrees on the horizontal plane makes it impossible to avoid, if for just a split second. These table guns 'sweep' everybody who walks by, or stand in all other aisles.

If a vertical gun rack on a show table is within reach, I try to keep the muzzle pointed upwards, but then the seller cuts off the plastic tie wrap, seemingly quite often in a manner which seems comfortable, but with no regard for which direction the muzzle points. Some sellers might keep muzzles pointed upwards as they cut the ties.

Most visitors behave as if all guns at shows or shops Must be, can only be empty.
They must not be aware of accidents at two shows within the last year, i.e. Bloomington, IL
(a Mini 14's .223 bullet wounded three people: one very seriously) etc.

The other seller at a show had an accidental discharge with a handgun, and then did it A Second Time (loaded mag?), from what I read.
Those were "empty guns".
 
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Just because a gun is "clear" doesn't mean it's safe:

At a gunshow here in town a few months ago, shortly after I left a fella sent a 30-06 round into another fella's leg.

The gun was checked by the seller in the parking lot, checked by the security folks at the door, and cleared again by the buyer at the table.

Only, the extractor was broken and all day long, folks were clearing the chamber but there was a round in the chamber the whole time. The buyer had verified the gun was unloaded, pulled the trigger, and shot someone anyway.

No one who cleared the gun actually peered down into the chamber, and the buyer didn't follow basic gun handling rules either.

So do I treat every gun I touch as if it were loaded, and keep it pointed in a safe direction at ALL TIMES?

YEP!

Do I clear every gun I touch?

NOPE. It's not practical in some cases. Let me give you a few examples:

No one is home. I need a rifle out of the back of the safe. I need to pull 4 rifles out to access it. As I remove them, the will be placed on the guest bed next to the safe.

Am I going to clear every gun as I touch it to remove it, then clear it again 30 seconds later when I put it back?

uhhh, no.

Another example:

Some guns I keep loaded with safe chamber indicators. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to fire a live round with a firearm in this condition.

Do I treat these guns as if they are loaded and keep it pointed in a safe direction at ALL TIMES?

YEP!

Do I clear that particular gun when I touch it, when the safe chamber indicator is in plain sight?

NOPE.

My .02 is that a gun should be pointed in a safe direction at ALL TIMES. And, I know some of you will posture and say you're perfect, but NO ONE clears every gun EVERY TIME it's touched. NO ONE.

--Duck911
 
How many other people insert their 'pinky' or index finger into every gun chamber being handled?
Maybe it seems plain silly or 'entry level'.

Almost nobody else appears to do so.
Considering how dark it is when trying to see most rifles chambers, and how, even in decent light, seeing a round in the chamber while shooting appears very 'normal', the finger check seems to work.

When people's minds 'see' what they expect to see, isn't the requirement to wear orange clothing when hunting just one result of this?
 
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Must be one of those days. Today in Houston at Bass Pro Shops a guy got out of his truck and carelessly swept me and my entire family with the muzzle of his Marlin 45-70. I caught up with him in the store and let him know what he did and that I do NOT like looking down the barrel of his gun. He looked at me like I was from Mars and walked away without saying a word of apology.
 
Well, actually we do clear every gun. Or perform an equivalent check for CCW.

Explanations -

Believe it or not, every gun in the safe is in a storage case. The safe is temperature-controlled, and I've never had a problem with rust. Different cases are used for field transport, and they don't go in the safe (because they get wet...)

So, we can handle cased guns when "sorting" them for what we want to do, and we don't clear them because they never come out of the case.

We have a "rapid access" safe which has a couple of loaded guns in it, in holsters on the door. These obviously need to be cleared before inspections or cleaning, but otherwise they are just moved from one form of holster to another, following the Four Rules. Do these get cleared? Not really. They get a "press check" to make sure they are loaded.

Putting pistols in a range bag or rifles in a field case? They get cleared first. Our range prohibits loaded guns in cases and violations can mean loss of membership. Range protocol is to uncase while the range is hot, set up shooting rests, etc. No reason to load because you're going to have to unload to service targets. Then, when range is cold, you leave guns on bench, actions open, and service targets. When range goes hot, you can load and then commence shooting. Guns have to be cleared before putting them back in case. Again, cased guns have to be unloaded.

At home, it's cleaning time. Guns are unloaded, right? Nope, they get cleared again before cleaning. After they are cleaned and oiled, they get put in their storage case. We check tags to make sure they don't get mixed up. (This isn't a safety thing, just a time-saver so we don't have to unzip 4 cases looking for the .243... :) )

Does it sound like we spend a lot of time clearing guns? Yep.

Many years ago, I thought I was fairly safe with guns. It took some discussion with more experienced shooters to convince me that it just isn't that hard to check a gun every time you pick it up. Unless it's cased...
 
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I dont care if its a rifle, video camera, or an Iphone. If your pointing anything at a stranger without getting their consent first then that just plain rude behavior. Obviously, a rifle carries much more possible dire consequences.
 
Suppose gun dealers were required to have safe handling (bulletproof) booths for firearm inspection, trigger testing, and general handling? Would that be safe?

Envision this: You select a firearm for your inspection and are escorted to a "VIP" handing room by a trained certified expert. Only there can you touch the firearm.

Would this not keep any prospective buyer from sweeping the store?

The kicker: Would we accept the additional costs incurred passed down to the purchase price? Suppose there's a $5 fee just to handle a firearm in the booth?
 
Suppose gun dealers were required to have safe handling (bulletproof) booths for firearm inspection, trigger testing, and general handling? Would that be safe?

Envision this: You select a firearm for your inspection and are escorted to a "VIP" handing room by a trained certified expert. The kicker: Would we accept the additional costs incurred passed down to the purchase price?
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That's not necessary if people would simply point the guns at the safe backstops the store already has while standing at the counter, namely the exterior walls, the floor, or the ceiling. A divot in a wall can be repaired much more easily than a hole in a person can.
 
Duck, I'll give you your gun safe shifting and chamber flag examples, as I have done the same thing myself. And yes, I do still keep their muzzles in a safe direction while doing it. Just good practice.

Regarding the gun show case you described: The rational among us would open the bolt, remove it, and have as good look as possible at the bore before even thinking about buying such a gun, and that simple step would have revealed the chambered round as well the broken extractor. That gun you described with the broken extractor was never properly cleared; a lot of people half-a$$ed it, but we're all taught to visually and finger check the chamber. Some people believe the finger check is unnecessary if you can see the chamber, and maybe it is with a gun you know well and whose chamber you really can see.

But this broken, loaded gun, even with all its lying on the table and being handled and examined, didn't discharge until numb nuts pulled the trigger. In public, with people around. On a used gun he just bought and whose bore he has never examined. That's stupid in many ways, and a good lesson for all of us.
 
And how many shelves/people/columns do you think you cross raising the muzzle from the floor to the ceiling?
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Check action to verify clear.

Point weapon to floor. With a handgun that is usually as far as it goes. With a long gun it may stop there or continue on to -

Check area and bring weapon up avoiding pointing at people to point at upper wall (I need a sufficiently distant point to sight on anyway and the intersection of the wall and ceiling usually has some feature like a corner or pipe/cable to make a small point to focus on). With any patience it is possible to do this with a brief wait of a couple of seconds. If not the floor will have to do.

Kinda like looking before turning into traffic and waiting for space to pull into.
 
Here in Wisconsin it is against the law to "scope" someone while hunting. Do it to a Warden or an LEO and it's a felony charge.

While I'll be the first to jump all over someone for pointing a gun at me, loaded or not, this was not the case for the OP. The poor smuck was just looking thru a scope that was mounted on a empty stock for convenience(and safety). No different than if he had been using a spotting scope on a tripod. Heck, back when I was a amateur photographer I had one of those camera stocks I used for taking action sports shots without a tripod. Never gave it a second thought that someone would get upset thinking it might accidentally go off. Guess what? No one did.

Anyone who thinks one can check out the brightness and clarity of a high powered scope by pointing it at the ceiling doesn't know much about optics. Even the best scopes on the market cannot focus at high power at a distance of 5 feet. One must look at something more distant to compare one to the other. Where do you do that a a big box store without the chance of someone walking into your view? This was not a post about being swept with a gun, but many took it off topic and made it one. It was a simple case of the OP mistaking an optics platform for a gun. I can understand his anger when he thought it WAS a gun, but when he found out HIS mistake, he should have said "never mind" and walked away.
 
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