Handling firearms in the gun store

[hso]

I just can't see a situation where I would miss a round.

This is what most people that have a negligent discharge believe before it happens. They believe in their own infallibility. Such confidence is misplaced.

Read any of the angst filled posts from people that have had NDs and believed they could never make this mistake before the accident. Some of the posts come with bloody pictures. If you have a wife or child or other family you care about think about those pictures being of them.

 

[benEzra]

Pointing at an exterior wall is safe? Really? Who's beyond it? Do you know?

A loaded masonry exterior wall will stop a single round from any gun I'd be looking at. So will a concrete ceiling, and a gravel-and-tar-over-metal roof probably will as well. Obviously if your gun shop is a corrugated metal building or vinyl sided plywood or something, or if you are on a lightly built second floor with people beneath you, adjust your directions accordingly. But since the point of watching your muzzle direction is to minimize the risk to other humans if a mistake should be made, then yes, sweeping an exterior wall is vastly preferable to sweeping an unshielded human being inside the store.

The whole point of the Four Rules is defense in depth; even if someone breaks one of them through carelessness, fatigue, or ignorance, *multiple* rules must be broken for a tragedy to occur. For example, if somebody gets careless with the muzzle because "it's unloaded" (Rule One violation), and they allow the muzzle to sweep an unshielded human being (Rule Two violation), Rule Three (finger off the trigger) should prevent a tragedy until range officers or bystanders can correct the Rule One and Rule Two violations.

What I'm seeing advocated in a few people's comments upthread is the de facto abandonment of Rule One and a loosening of Rule Two, and I strongly disagree with that.

And aside from the safety ramifications, I can't reiterate enough how rude it is when someone sweeps other people in the room, even briefly, with an "unloaded" gun. I don't care how many times you've checked the chamber, I haven't checked it myself, so I'm not going to take your word for it.

 

[Robert]

But it just seems to me that some people are way too safety concerned.

No such thing. Not to mention it is just plain rude to be covering someone.

But when I know that gun is empty, like I just cleared it. I am not going to be all that concerned about where it is pointed. While I would not train it on anybody, at some point the barrel is going to point at somebody.

There is no such thing as an unloaded firearm. Treat everyone as if it is loaded and you will never hear, "but I thought it was unloaded..." again.

People may say I am unsafe, but to me an empty gun is not dangerous.

You are. Even if I have a chamber flag in or the bolt removed I would never, NEVER, point a firearm at or sweep someone. It is not only rude but it is just plain bad training. Every year people are killed by "unloaded" firearms that they or their buddy just checked. There is no excuse for being sloppy or unsafe with firearms.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...My point is that people take safety way too far with unnecessary rules and complaints....

I don't know any well trained shooter who I would say takes safety too far. But they all take it very seriously -- all the time. Not one of them would ever say something like (post 7):

...But when I know that gun is empty, like I just cleared it. I am not going to be all that concerned about where it is pointed....

Muzzle and trigger finger discipline is whenever handling a gun, all the time, every time.

There are no unnecessary rules. There are only four of them. But they apply all the time, every time one is handling a gun.

...Firearm safety is not hard....

No, it's not hard. But it does need to be taken seriously.

...When the clerk hands me a gun with the slide open and I see that there isn't a round in the chamber, I am not going to check 360 then make sure the muzzle never, ever sweeps anybody....

You should. The less doing so is an absolute and ingrained habit, the greater the chance one will make a mistake at the wrong time. One key to doing something right all the time is consciously doing it right all the time.

...I spend a lot of time at the gun stores and I don't see that many people doing things differently than I do....

Yes there are many people with lousy safety habits. They bring shame to us all.

A short time ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus:

Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".

The current Four Rules grew up on a hot range where it is customary to indeed go about with one's gun(s) loaded and where people are trained who will indeed be going around with loaded guns out in the world and about their normal business.

 

[beatledog7]

This [I could never miss a round] is what most people that have a negligent discharge believe before it happens. They believe in their own infallibility. Such confidence is misplaced.

Amen to that, hso. Which is part of why some of us on here get a little bent from time to time when others insist that they are right and nobody else's thoughts and ideas are worth a bean. Everyone, and that means everyone, is susceptible to making a mistake. That's why we're all diligent.

Nobody's credentials or experience can make him immune to mistakes, nor can they keep him from being plain old, run-of-the-mill wrong.

 

[Frogdoggy]

I may be missing something here, but I have never seen a scope mounted to a stock.

 

[jcwit]

I may be missing something here, but I have never seen a scope mounted to a stock.

You need to get out more!

Amen to that, hso. Which is part of why some of us on here get a little bent from time to time when others insist that they are right and nobody else's thoughts and ideas are worth a bean. Everyone, and that means everyone, is susceptible to making a mistake. That's why we're all diligent.

Nobody's credentials or experience can make him immune to mistakes, nor can they keep him from being plain old, run-of-the-mill wrong.

This made me think of a post made by a Mod. Never is an awful long time!

 

[76shuvlinoff]

After I read this thread I had the exact same thing happen to me at the Cabela's in Dundee MI today. Scope was mounted to blank stock.

Yep it gives you an uneasy feeling.

 

[Bmac1949]

Buck posted: "It was a simple case of the OP mistaking an optics platform for a gun. I can understand his anger when he thought it WAS a gun, but when he found out HIS mistake, he should have said "never mind" and walked away."

There were plenty of other things in the store to view through the scope. He had no need to have the scope trained on me wether it was on a platform or on a rifle made no difference to me when I looked up. To look up and see a rifle pointed at you is not a comfortable feeling to say the least. Why not aim at one of the wall mounts. That way someone doesn't have to worry about what the scope is mounted on.

 

[JackTheRipper]

They should paint the mount a neon color so people would recognize it as being fake...

 

[ColtPythonElite]

They should paint the mount a neon color so people would recognize it as being fake...

That wouldn't make me think it's fake. (I'd guess the lack of the barrel in the OP's case might, though...LOL) Guns come in all colors in the rainbow these days. Lots of PD's use neon orange gun stocks on their 12 gauges to designate them as bean bag guns. Hogue makes 'em. They say "Less Lethal" on the stock.

 

[mortablunt]

If you think that's bad, try going to a big gun show. I guarantee that at any one time, at least four people sweeping you. The customer wasn't being malicious and probably lowered the scope so soon as he realized that it was pointing at you. I've always aimed handled guns at the floor or at some high point where nobody is in the way.

 

[chrt396]

Actually..it is safer to transport with muzzle up. Less chance of a richochet. Round goes off..hits the concrete floor..and who knows where the round will end up.

 

[john wall]

"But when I know that gun is empty, like I just cleared it. I am not going to be all that concerned about where it is pointed."

It seems some village has lost their idiot. I have lost a family member with this kind of mindset, and know several "instructors" that have ND'd rounds in a classroom because they thought they knew it all. One of them recently shot his left pinky finger off after his SECOND negligent discharge, in a classroom.

 

[dmazur]

Well, the picture probably couldn't be considered "High Road", but I still laughed...

In gunstores as anywhere else, gun safety is very important. And, assuming a dedicated and observant sales staff, it is very unlikely that ammunition is going to "suddenly appear" in a gun counter inspection process. If it does (a customer who wants to "check the action"), the salesman can quickly suggest using a dummy round.

So, the salesman is creating the "visibly inert" gun for you to handle.

As proof that you understand gun safety, you don't sweep anyone with the muzzle, even though you know it is unloaded. (Rule 1 and 2) You aim somewhere presumably safe, close the action, and dry fire.

Then, here's where the burden shifts to the customer -- clear the gun and hand it back action open, butt first (pistols & revolvers) or muzzle at ceiling (rifles). This proves to the salesman that it is still inert.

Unfortunately, many gun customers are new to the game and just plain don't know the rules. Maybe in time, but not right then.

So, I suppose we should be grateful for the stores that maintain safety standards. It would be so easy to get complacent.

And, perhaps we should cut the customers a little slack. If they are neophytes.

However, if you've been shooting for any length of time, there is almost no excuse for not learning the rules.

 

[JayBird]

Who hasn't seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

His mistakes?

He said it was unloaded. I am sure he really did think it was unloaded.

He certainly had the attitude of....I know more than anyone else.

And finally....he just couldn't keep his finger off the trigger.

Luckily, he only shot himself.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...In gunstores as anywhere else, gun safety is very important. And, assuming a dedicated and observant sales staff, it is very unlikely that ammunition is going to "suddenly appear" in a gun counter inspection process. If it does (a customer who wants to "check the action"), the salesman can quickly suggest using a dummy round.
....

As proof that you understand gun safety, you don't sweep anyone with the muzzle...

Let's consider some of the reasons why muzzle discipline (never let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy) and trigger finger discipline (always keep your finger off the trigger [and indexed on the frame] until you're on target and ready to shoot).

1. Muzzle and trigger finger discipline should be a habit -- something you will do habitually without conscious thought. True, one needs to always be aware of what he's doing when handling a gun and should be consciously aware of muzzle and trigger finger discipline. But one can be distracted or subject to momentary brain fade. If safety is truly a habit, one will probably still be safe if for a moment his concentration falters.
   
   
2. If one does everything right all the time, doing the right thing doesn't require any decision making or judgment. Whenever I have a gun in my hand, I'm going to adhere to muzzle and trigger finger discipline, all the time, no exceptions. But once one makes exceptions ("...But when I know that gun is empty, like I just cleared it. I am not going to be all that concerned about where it is pointed...."), he now has to make a decision and exercise judgment about whether or not strict muzzle and trigger finger discipline applies when he has a gun in his hand. But anyone can have a lapse of judgment or a moment of uncertainty, and that could be disastrous with a gun in his hand.
   
   
3. We need to model good behavior all the time for others, especially new shooters.

...perhaps we should cut the customers a little slack. If they are neophytes...

Not really, especially neophytes. Folks need to learn and begin developing good habits as soon as possible. That doesn't mean that we have to be obnoxious about it. Gentle, but firm, correction one hopes would be sufficient. But as far as I'm concern a lackadaisical attitude toward safety and less that strict muzzle and trigger finger discipline is never acceptable.

 

[dmazur]

By "a little slack", I didn't mean it was acceptable. Just that the gun store situation wasn't set up for teaching. And an effort is being made to ensure that the guns are not loaded.

Now, there's no slack permitted at our range. This range insists on a written exam on gun safety before you are allowed in without being accompanied by a member. And all the members are expected to perform the duties of RSO's.

It may sound unworkable, but it actually works pretty well. Everyone's membership is at stake, so violations of the rules just aren't permitted.

The "hole" in the system seems to be that there's no guarantee that new gun owners will ever receive safety training, unless they realize the necessity and take it upon themselves.

 

[JO JO]

I was tought never point a gun at anything or anyone you dont intend to shoot, treat every weapon as if it is loaded, my opinion is that at least 1/2 the people that work behind a gun counter are complete JACK WAGONS with no real training but they will sure tell a guy they know it all,
I think most of them are unsafe with a sling shot

 

[Guns4Fun]

Myself, I always make sure my gun is pointed in a safe direction, loaded or not. If I'm going to pass it to another person, I check again. I look inside and make certain (how hard can that be?) there's no shell.

I can imagine, if I try real hard, how it could be that an unfamiliar gun would hide a live round when being cleared, such as an ejector clinging on as in one linked story, but I think I'd still catch it. It amazes, but no longer surprises me when I hear of stupid ND's - yet I always double check my handgun, every time, all the time, any time I pick up my firearm, and especially any time I hand it to someone else.

Frankly, I find it strange that we even must discuss whether pointing is polite, or not - maybe it's just me, but I point my gun where I'd feel comfortable with someone else pointing theirs.

And finally, if I'm in some place (other than a gun store, etc.) and someone points a gun at me, they'll see what it's like to have a gun pointed right back at them, pronto!

 

[doc2rn]

One it wasnt a real weapon, two it couldnt possibly have gone off by accident even if it wanted to its just a stock, three there was no muzzle to sweep so getting your dander up over nothing is just that... nothing! If I reacted as you did everytime I had a real life muzzle of an enemy weapon swept my way I would have been in alot more firefights than I was while serving, and to that I say again its just not worth it.

 

[LibShooter]

"Never point a firearm at something you're not prepared to shoot"

A plastic stock is not a firearm. I understand your concern when you couldn't tell it wasn't a gun... but upon learning what it was I think I would have shrugged and said, "Never mind."

At stores and gun shows, I tend to aim at the point the ceiling and farthest wall meet. But, the guns are usually lying on tables at about waist height. On the way up to my shoulder easily half a dozen folks get swept. Often including the guy standing across the counter. That's why he's very motivated to make very sure all his wares have been carefully cleared.

And in checking out any kind of non-firearm optics I see nothing wrong with pointing them at people across the store. I try not to pick my nose in public.

 

[Bmac1949]

"One it wasnt a real weapon, two it couldnt possibly have gone off by accident even if it wanted to its just a stock, three there was no muzzle to sweep so getting your dander up over nothing is just that... nothing!"
Doc2. When you're looking straight into a rifle from about 60' the muzzle isn't the first thing that catches the eye it was the scope and the guy behind it. I know there was no chance of it being discharged now, but as I looked up I didn't. Far as I'm concerned this was rude and unnecessary. IMO

 

[Bmac1949]

+1 Fiddletown post #91

 

[stonecutter2]

I never sweep anyone in gun shops. I point whatever I'm messing with at the ceiling, or the floor.

When handed anything, I ensure it's clear.

When I'm done inspecting, I lock the action if possible before placing it back on the counter. Helps the clerk ensure again it's clear before putting it back (or putting it in a box to take home!).

I do think the OP made a fair mistake, but the guy that was pointing the scope at other people...umm what's his deal I would never feel compelled to put a scope on someone, even if just handling a scope mounted on a stock. I would certainly still have been uncomfortable in the situation.