How i Judge right fire power for pocket carry, the pit bull dog rule.

[SMMAssociates]

IMHO, just about any dog is a live grenade.... Even when Sammy was tiny, he was fearless, and he's worse now .... We went to the vet on Monday, and as we were sitting there, a little Rat Terrier ('bout half Sammy's size) refused to stay in the waiting room with us. A little Bichon (I'm not sure exactly the breed) came out of an examing room, saw Sammy, and tried to get back in, and a Shepherd puppy couldn't quite decide what he Sammy was, but being elsewhere was a good idea.

That doesn't count three cats, an elderly Cocker (who stayed under the chairs), and a couple of Schnauzer-ish dogs.

I think he's part Pit....

Seriously, the breeder vanished when I asked for papers and shot records.... He had been working for my sister in Dallas, and she (and Becka) bought Sammy from him. (Becka flew him to Columbus, and then drove up here & dropped him off. Without telling us....) Anybody's guess what's in the mix.

He's generally a very good dog, but very territorial. The "new" house (moved back in with mom) has a 300' or so frontage on a park with a jogging trail, an while it's at least 100' from Sammy's fenced area, he still thinks it's his. With loud results.... The fence was set up to keep him from digging under it.

(The fence at the old house wasn't.... Didn't know about that sort of thing in 1989, and the current mutt, then, wasn't a digger. He used to go through the chicken-wire fence at the other house, but that was replaced with chain link. When we moved in '89, we put up chain link before moving in, and did the same thing last September when we moved here. Turns out that Becka's boyfriend's border collie is a digger, and managed to get out of Sammy's fence at the other house.... They were over there helping to clean the place up for sale.)

Point is that it really doesn't matter what kind of dog, other than the bigger ones being capable of inflicting more damage more quickly. You have to keep an eye on 'em....

(Sammy's new fenced area is set up so he can be seen from inside the house fairly easily. You do have to move around a bit, but the likely points he'd care to try are visible.)

We had a cocker, btw, that couldn't quite tell the difference between grass and carpeting. She wasn't prone to running off, but bit one of Becka's girlfriends. Basically, she grabbed the kid by the head! Just like puppies.... No real damage, but it scared both of the kids.... She got me once, too - same thing, playing. Sammy's not quite that rough, but he also learned to play with other pups before playing with people, and grabbing me by the leg was part of his "let's run around the yard, daddy!" plan. Trashed a few pair of jeans that way.... 'Bout the time he lost his baby teeth, he quit doing that.... But he'll still try to grab my hand if he want's to play....

Sammy had a girlfriend who was a pit, too, I'm told, when he was a baby. No idea how accurate that is. Like Roscoe, you don't keep a JRT from his friends....

We also keep Sammy away from the little kids - my little sister has six grandchildren - little fingers and all that. The oldest is about six, and she probably could deal with him, but the youngest is just under a year. Anybody's guess.... In his case, he's not trying to hurt anybody, but just hasn't got the experience.

(Tuner, those pictures are hilarious.)

Regards,

 

[WinchesterAA]

When the attacker is attacking something else, it is generally a perfect opportunity to use a knife..

 

[1911Tuner]

IMHO, just about any dog is a live grenade....

Pretty accurate assessment, Stu. Whenever somebody askes me if my dog(s) will bite, my standard answer has been: "All dogs will bite if you push the right buttons. It's pretty much up to you."

Tuner, those pictures are hilarious.)

Oh, it gets to be a real show around here sometimes. Those two have knocked over chairs and tumbled headlong down the steps during some of their mad moments.

 

[IdahoLT1]

ChCx2744:

It really depends on State law and what's happened in previous court rulings. In Idaho, you can dispatch a wild animal or domestic animal if it attacks/harrasses you(or 3rd party member) or your property(livestock or domestic animal).

Case in point my great grandfather had 5 mules and a horse on his property(about 8 acres). The neighbors dogs, Dingo/Heeler mix, would get out and chase his mules. If you didn't know, some breeds will chase other animals until they die of exhaustion. He warned them numerous times he would take care of the problem if they failed to do so themselves. One afternoon he had enough and shot them both with his .30-06, picked up the bodies and placed them on the neighbors driveway. The owners were of course upset, but couldn't file any suits because of State law. The responding sheriffs told them this.

I will say that when 2 large breed dogs fight, it literally becomes a blur. I wouldn't shoot at first, for fear of hitting my own dog, until I had a clear shot. I would assume, in most States, it would be justified.

 

[1911Tuner]

Anyway...back onto the topic.

Unless specifically trained to avoid a weapon, a charging dog will clamp down onto whatever is closest to him. A pointy stick, about 4 feet long and 5/8ths inch in diameter will turn off most dog attacks. Hold it out in front with both hands on it, and when he grabs it...shove it down his throat hard, and keep shoving. When he learns that you can hurt him, he'll generally break of the attack and head for home. Back up the stick with a gun.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

Becka was three kids too many, and she gave us Sammy, who's three dogs too many.... I've seen both of them do that sort of thing!

(Then there's my little sister's six grandkids. Five are big enough to be "fun", and three probably should be nailed into a barrel soon .)

Personally, if the dogs can play with each other, as long as they don't do too much damage (or eat the mailman), so what.... It's when they interact with everybody else that it gets interesting (and potentially dangerous). Becka's boyfriend has four now. The oldest is slightly smarter than a rock. If you play ball with him, he won't leave you alone all night. But he and the border collie will sit under the dining room table without incident if you don't mind the tail-swish damage . I don't know the other two all that well yet.

We never had any trouble with our terrier-poodle mix. He was afraid of the neighbor's cat (it was a BIG cat), and well used to kids - the folks we got him from had one too many.... Never a real problem.

And a story.... Becka started driving about eight years ago, and did a double-date with a girlfriend. For some reason Becka and her date dropped the girlfriend off at the girlfriend's date's home and went to a movie. Then Becka came home and realized she hadn't picked up her friend. A quick call confirmed that she needed a ride, and Becka said "I'll be right over!" At which point I reminded her that it was after curfew and "WE" would be right over....

Get in the car and Becka admits she's not entirely sure where the house is, but she knew the street, and there was a "big sign" next to the house.... Ten minutes or so later we pull up to the right house. It was the same house we got Spunky from quite a few years earlier. The sign was for a breeding kennel - they gave Spunky (a mixed terrier & poodle) to the neighbor kids. The girlfriend's date hadn't been born yet.... (Same family.)

(I blame Tuner for this, guys. He refused to come out and say hello to my wife and I as we drove by on our honeymoon in 1975.... Just 'cause we didn't "meet" until 2004....)

IdahoLT1:

I'm pretty sure the laws used to be similar in most states - certainly "out west", but the city-dwellers too over .... I think I mentioned earlier that around 1900 you could buy guns and ammunition especially marketed for folks on bicycles who were being harassed by (wild) dogs.... Try to sell that now....

(Tuner: Remember that blown Commander? I sold the slide to a friend who's smith checked it out and said it's OK. Project gun.... The frame's wearing a Kimber .22LR Conversion kit. The "problem" that made the gun unsafe is bypassed by the Kimber design.)

Idaho: Just happened to think, the last time I was in Boise was in 1967. Really liked the place. I was doing a "road trip" with a buddy. We were downtown near the Statehouse and he recognized a former classmate (he'd spent a year or so at school there, living with an uncle). Ended up with a dinner invite.... On my list of places I wouldn't mind retiring to. Problem is that I just turned 64, and can't afford to retire ....

Regards,

 

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

Hadn't thought about that. I just have to remember to pop the tip off my cane....

(Sammy's responsible for that, too....)

Regards,

 

[ChCx2744]

1911Tuner said:

A pointy stick, about 4 feet long and 5/8ths inch in diameter will turn off most dog attacks. Hold it out in front with both hands on it, and when he grabs it...shove it down his throat hard, and keep shoving. When he learns that you can hurt him, he'll generally break of the attack and head for home. Back up the stick with a gun.

Hadn't thought of that. Great input, Tuner. Not only would that deter the dog, but it is another S&T you can utilize with a cane (For those who already carry one).

 

[Officers'Wife]

My ancestors didn't discover fire, develop gunpowder and learn about rifling for me to defend myself and animals with a pointy stick. The state of Indiana happens to agree with me on this one.

IC 15-20-2-1
Liability of owner or harborer
Sec. 1. If a dog kills or injures any livestock while the livestock is in the care, custody, and control of the livestock's owner or the owner's agent, the owner or harborer of the dog is liable to the owner of the livestock for all damages sustained, including reasonable attorney's fees and court costs.
As added by P.L.2-2008, SEC.11.

IC 15-20-2-2
Authority to kill dog injuring livestock
Sec. 2. A person who observes a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock may kill the dog if the person has the consent of the person in possession of the real estate on which the dog is found.

 

[DammitBoy]

Roscoe is trying to impregnate our neighbors English Springer Spaniel. Which is pretty damn funny considering his front paws can barely reach her butt.

I gotta give him an 'A' for effort so far though. He keeps trying no matter how much she rejects the advances.

I sure hope my neighbor doesn't try to shoot him when those funny looking puppies show up...

 

[SMMAssociates]

DammitBoy:

ROF,L!

Officer'sWife:

If you're adept with the pointy stick, and can avoid the potential legal entanglements that a firearm may cause, it still may be better to try it. The trick is in judging which, and noting that it's often possible to carry a pointy stick (i.e., a cane or walking stick) into places where a more useful device may be infringed out the door....

(The law may ultimately protect you, but staying entirely out of court is usually the best practice.)

My ancestors were rather poor at navigation. They managed to settle in the only part of the Middle East that's not floating on oil.... They also invented guilt....

Regards,

 

[1911Tuner]

My ancestors didn't discover fire, develop gunpowder and learn about rifling for me to defend myself and animals with a pointy stick.

The point isn't to defend oneself by way of modern technology. The point is to turn off an aggressive dog without opening fire in what will likely be a residential area...possibly missing or overpenetrating the dog and having bullets skittering around, headed for God knows where, including the neighborhood sandlot baseball game. At that point, the state of Indiana may well become an active enemy rather than a passive ally.

Also in the "For what it's Worth" column...Wasp and Hornet spray is not only more effective than pepper spray...it offers greater range with its powerful stream. Intense pain and immediate temporary blindness generally result in the dog dancing a jig in the middle of the street and emitting pitiful howls while you walk away. Dogs aren't stupid. It will give Fido cause to reconsider his options in the future, and it provides the added benefit of ridding him of any external parasites that may be crawling around on his head and neck.

These methods may not have much Warrior/Ninja appeal...but they'll take care of 98% of aggressive dogs with little fanfare and risk of becoming deeply entangled in the legal and/or civil court system.

 

[Coyote3855]

Quote:
IC 15-20-2-1
Liability of owner or harborer
Sec. 1. If a dog kills or injures any livestock while the livestock is in the care, custody, and control of the livestock's owner or the owner's agent, the owner or harborer of the dog is liable to the owner of the livestock for all damages sustained, including reasonable attorney's fees and court costs.
As added by P.L.2-2008, SEC.11.

IC 15-20-2-2
Authority to kill dog injuring livestock
Sec. 2. A person who observes a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock may kill the dog if the person has the consent of the person in possession of the real estate on which the dog is found.

This covers "livestock." Maybe not pets or people. In Wyoming, the law allows landowners to kill dogs threatening livestock. Also allows anyone to kill dogs attaching/chasing wildlife.

My dogs are always on a leash or inside a fence. Less than lethal options for dog attacks are a good theory, but I'm always carrying a handgun. No so wasp spray or pepper spray. I live, bike, hike, and fish in relatively remote areas. If I were dog walking or biking in town, I would consider options.

I agree that in most cases, it's not the dog's fault although I never 100% trust any dog, including my own. When we lived in town, a neighbor's Doberman would not let my wife get to her car from our front door. Would I have shot the dog if I'd been at home? Probably not, that's when the call goes to animal control. My 65 year old mother in law was taken down by two pits when she was doing real estate. I'd have shot those in a hearbeat.

 

[Harley Rider 55]

Pit bulls? Just about any caliber. An aggressive Fila? 10mm

 

[Lazybones]

ATR 100 .270 at about 400 yrds across the corn field out back.

Now how exactly were you being threatened by a dog that was "400 yards across the corn field"?

Some of you guys seem to be pretty quick on the trigger. I keep my dogs contained but if you have dogs for any length of time sooner or later they are are going to get out.

Are you absolutely sure you can tell the difference between a running barking curious dog and a running barking aggressive dog? Especially at 400 yards?

Do you know that in most cases the dog will react to your reaction? If you immediately go into Rambo mode the dog is going to also. You laugh at him and whisper sweet nothings in his ear and likely the confrontation is avoided.

Of course I'm not saying that bad things don't happen. I am saying that from my personal experience over the years most dog encounters gone bad could have been avoided with just a basic understanding of animal behavior.

You just have to be smarter then the dog.

 

[Officers'Wife]

This covers "livestock." Maybe not pets or people.

The next section covers what is considered 'livestock' that the county can be charged for compensation. In practice, a dog 'at large' on your property and acting in a manner the reasonable person would consider aggressive is not going to be protected under civil or even criminal law under court precedence.

One of my brother's neighbors has three dogs that run all over the countryside. Since they are friendly and good natured, most of the neighbors give them water and food, pat them on the head and point them home knowing the hours the guy works the dogs are simply seeking companionship. Under the letter of the law, the neighbor is in violation. But reasonable people see no harm so take no foul.

 

[BlisteringSilence]

Let me start this by stating that I go on at least 3 dog calls a week, so I'm going to say I've got a fair amount of experience with this one.

How about pepper spray? You don't have to shoot everything just because you can, and that would give you a broader continuum of options to escalate force.

This is the most logical post in this thread.

Pepper spray does not always work with overly aggressive animals. Killing it also keeps it from trying to chew on somebody else or there kids. If it wasn't so aggressive, then I wouldn't have to put it down. I don't put an animal down just because he barks at me. But over the last 15 years we have had major dog problems in my area. Not so since the mean ones have been put down.

I don't know what kind of spray you're carrying, but I have NEVER had a dog continue the fight (or the aggression) after I've sprayed him/her. I don't use my spray on people, and I generally go through 3 or 4 cans a year.

And to this mess:

Killing it also keeps it from trying to chew on somebody else or there kids. If it wasn't so aggressive, then I wouldn't have to put it down.

When exactly did you get appointed judge, jury, and executioner? The same argument could be made with the criminals I deal with on a regular basis... that doesn't make it legal either.

If any dog ever attacks me, it will be unprovoked. I'll kill the animal given half a chance, and be doing a community service by permanently removing a serious threat to the safety of others. The next time the victim might not be armed.

I have zero tolerance for aggressive animals left uncontrolled.
KR

Dude, that's a pretty extreme stance, and a really good way to end up behind bars. You realize that your appearance in a dog's marked territory is a provocation, right? And (at least down here) if you're off your personal property and take action like this, you're both civilly and potentially criminally liable. You realize that breeding and show dogs are worth felony amounts of money, right?

I had 2 of my 80# dogs fighting and my dept issue OC didn't faze them one bit.

Glad all the blood was from them and not mine or my family's appendages. Sure I'll trust pepper spray to stop animal attacks.

Justin

Again, I don't know what spray you're carrying, but it might be time to tell your department to change brands. Fox Cop Top in the heavy stream, or Sabre Red if you can't get the Fox. Get the stream, not the fog.

Pepper spray works fantastic on a dog and no cops show up...

Moreover, pepper spray is what the COPS use.

 

[Harley Rider 55]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pepper spray only made my dog mad when the electric meter reader sprayed my wolf/rott mix.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Does anyone here know how to kill an attacking dog with their bare hands?

A guy in my neighborhood did it to one while I was watching from close by with my hand on my P7 under my shirt.

It was possibly the scariest thing I have ever seen.

He just snuffed it out with what appeared to be a punch to the throat and then a stomp to the neck.

Some kind of pit bull mix.

 

[Higgy]

I killed a fly with a rubberband once.

 

[Radium]

wow tuner thats a huge yorkshire slasher

our little pocket sized dorkforhire terrorist is just a few 308win shells short of 4 pounds.

funny thing is she has only lived with our 3 cats, she is afraid of other dogs,she only recognises cats as her friends. (she processes other yorkies as [is cat] in her little mind .

thinking about getting her a k9 friend... daddy is a bit emarrased. its like having a boy who wants to dress up as cinderella at helloween or start dancing instead of playing football. what to do what to do...

just to get a feeling how small she is, that red box are my old retainers that i should use everynight.

look into my eyes,Give up resistance is futile turn channel back to animal planets

edit last pic she looks quite big but thats just her fur being all wilded up after a night of tag inside the house

 

[Officers'Wife]

When exactly did you get appointed judge, jury, and executioner? The same argument could be made with the criminals I deal with on a regular basis... that doesn't make it legal either.

Are you saying that dogs have civil rights equal to human citizen? Dogs are property, not legally independent beings.

You realize that breeding and show dogs are worth felony amounts of money, right?

Interesting, are you implying that if the animal is worth felony amount of money you should allow it to attack your child? I'm curious here, would you also advise not to resist a rapist as doing so will annoy him and make him hurt you more?

 

[BlisteringSilence]

Are you saying that dogs have civil rights equal to human citizen? Dogs are property, not legally independent beings.

No, but for you to deprive another of his property without due process of law is most certainly a violation of the law. Perhaps my example was poor. Let's try this one:

When exactly did you get appointed judge, jury, and executioner? The same argument could be made with the meth lab that we busted last week? Can you just blow it up? Meth labs are full of toxic chemicals, not to mention their cost to society, and the addictive potential of the drug.

Interesting, are you implying that if the animal is worth felony amount of money you should allow it to attack your child? I'm curious here, would you also advise not to resist a rapist as doing so will annoy him and make him hurt you more?

1. Straw Man Argument: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

2. OH NOES! ITS FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!

3. What I am implying is that, like all decisions in life, one must make a risk/reward decision before taking an action. Let's review the original post, shall we?

If any dog ever attacks me, it will be unprovoked. I'll kill the animal given half a chance, and be doing a community service by permanently removing a serious threat to the safety of others. The next time the victim might not be armed.

I have zero tolerance for aggressive animals left uncontrolled.

KR

Now, let's examine a hypothetical, shall we?

I, blisteringsilence, am a landowner. I own a beautiful piece of property, 80 acres, and the northern border of my property is a creek. This creek is popular among fishermen and canoers, and is bordered on both sides by private property for the vast majority of its run.

On this property, I have decided to open a breeding kennel for pit bulls. I use my pits for protection, and cashing in on the recent dangerous dog fad, I am selling the pups for $500 each.

My dominant AKC-registered and show champion male is free to roam my property as he sees fit, in compliance with all my local laws and regulations.

A canoer, tired from a long morning on the creek, decides to pull ashore on my property, ignoring my purple paint, and have lunch. My pit, in defending his territory, attacks this wayward canoeist, injuring him. His canoeing pal, a dually authorized and licensed CHL holder, removes his sidearm and kills my dog.

End result: the injured man goes to the hospital and is written a ticket for trespassing, the shooter goes to jail for felony destruction of property and trespassing, and I sue him for the value of the dog, which I place at $25,000. We settle out of court for $10,000, and I agree with the prosecutor to let him plead out to two misdemeanors and 30 days in jail, with another 90 suspended contingent on paying the fines and court costs.

This isn't so much a hypothetical. I actually worked this case a couple of years ago.

My point, as always, is to use good common sense.

And if you've got dog issues, just pepper spray them. Like I said, I do it all the time, and it's not failed me yet.

 

[Officers'Wife]

This isn't so much a hypothetical. I actually worked this case a couple of years ago.

So you escalated a case of simple trespass by assaulting the canoeist with a deadly weapon, aka a dog. I'll bet that was an interesting case.

I could follow with a case with a farmer in the next county that had longhorn cattle. A tourist decided it would be a photo op to have his wife and child pose next to one of the calves. The farmer was found guilty of keeping a dangerous animal even though every fool would know that getting between a cow and her calf is provocation. Luckily the gentleman had a different judge in the civil trial that wasn't impressed by the City of Chicago creds.

 

[1911Tuner]

Wasp and Hornet spray works better than pepper spray...and most charging dogs can be handled with a stick. For those rare ones that aren't deterred, the stick maintains distance and gives you time to reach for the gun. No one could blame you for defending yourself against an aggressive dog with a stick. Bring a gun into the equation, and it gets a little complicated. Double complicated if you're in a residential area. Let an errant round hit an occupied building...even if nobody gets hurt...and you'll find yourself on the short end of a very nasty stick in quick time.

The point? The gun is a last resort. If you can avoid bringing it into the fight, you'll be much better off all the way around.