Officer attempts to intimidate Open Carry owner and fails

[TexasRifleman]

Now, this happened in North Carolina.

There IS a law that might be applicable here, but the officer clearly was not aware of it so it can't go against any kind of "probable cause" argument.

North Carolina law further makes it unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any public place, owned or under the control of the State of North Carolina, or any of its political subdivisions, to willfully or intentionally possess, or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-277.2

So, had the officer actually known the law there may have been grounds for arrest here if this meets the definition of "demonstration".

The cameraman posts on his You Tube account a description of the events, as well as a photo of himself.

He states that a detective came by later looking for him. So, he may not be out of the woods, and he may have indeed broken a law, but the officer on the video doesn't seem to know this and walked away.

The gun carrier appears to be well aware of North Carolina law too, because he mentions very clearly that this was not a protest or demonstration.

May end up in court anyway, but the argument that the cop had some probable cause to initiate this based on the age of the carrier just doesn't seem to fly.

 

[spartywrx]

Police may not even temporarily detain an open carrier

Ahem.....This case was just settled in New Mexico

Police may not even temporarily detain a person simply because he is openly carrying a handgun.

Defendants lacked a justifiable suspicion that Mr. St. John had committed a crime, was committing a crime or was about to commit a crime. Indeed, Officer McColley conceded that he did not observe Mr. St. John committing any crimes and that he arrived at the theater with the suspicion that Mr. St. John was merely “showing a gun”, which is not illegal in the State of New Mexico. Nor was there any reason to believe that a crime was afoot. When they found him, Mr. St. John was peacefully sitting through the previews for his second movie of the day. Officers had no reason to believe that Mr. St. John had been, was, or would be involved in any criminal activity whatsoever.

Professor Volokh over at his blog has a good write up on this decision.

http://volokh.com/2009/10/01/police...simply-because-hes-openly-carrying-a-handgun/

So at least in NM if a cop even temporarily stops you for OC'ing, you can sue his pants off for a 4th amendment violation.

 

[donato]

In New Mexico,
what if the officer has reason to believe that the gun carrier is doing so illegally?

 

[TexasRifleman]

In New Mexico,
what if the officer has reason to believe that the gun carrier is doing so illegally?

The court ruling goes on to say:

if such open carrying in that place is generally not a crime. So holds St. John v. McColley (D.N.M. Sept. 8, 2009), which grants summary judgment to the seized person on his Fourth Amendment claim:

So if it's a crime all bets are off but they can't detain someone for simply abiding by the law.

As the court rightfully says in the New Mexico ruling (I paraphrase) "a cop can no more detain someone for suspicion of carrying a wallet than for suspicion of carrying a gun where carrying a gun is legal"

And that's the thing here in this North Carolina case. The gun itself seems to evoke some irrational fear on the part of this officer and that's just not right, though it is fairly common in open carry states.

 

[General Geoff]

PA v. Hawkins established Pennsylvania case law back in 1996, to this nature. To wit:

The Superior Court reasoned that because the officer arrived within three
minutes of receiving the call, because Hawkins fitted the description of the
man on the radio broadcast, and because Hawkins allegedly had a gun, there was
"sufficient corroboration" of the phone call to give the officer reasonable
suspicion that Hawkins was "armed and dangerous." Superior Court erroneously
believed that these factors were sufficient to justify the search of appellant
and the seizure of his gun.

If the police respond to an anonymous call that a particular person at a
specified location is engaged in criminal activity, and upon arriving at the
location see a person matching the description but nothing more, they have no
certain knowledge except that the caller accurately described someone at a
particular location. As the United States Supreme Court observed in Illinois
v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213, 103 S. Ct. 2317, 76 L.Ed.2d 527 (1983), the fact that a
suspect resembles the anonymous caller's description does not corroborate
allegations of criminal conduct, for anyone can describe a person who is
standing in a particular location at the time of the anonymous call. Something
more is needed to corroborate the caller's allegations of criminal conduct.
The fact that the subject of the call was alleged to be carrying a gun, of
course, is merely another allegation, and it supplies no reliability where
there was none before. And since there is no gun exception to the Terry
requirement for reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, in the typical
anonymous caller situation, the police will need an independent basis to
establish the requisite reasonable suspicion.

The Commonwealth takes the radical position that police have a duty to
stop and frisk when they receive information from any source that a suspect has
a gun. Since it is not illegal to carry a licensed gun in Pennsylvania, it is
difficult to see where this shocking idea originates, notwithstanding the
Commonwealth's fanciful and histrionic references to maniacs who may spray
schoolyards with gunfire and assassins of public figures who may otherwise go
undetected. Even if the Constitution of Pennsylvania would permit such
invasive police activity as the Commonwealth proposes -- which it does not --
such activity seems more likely to endanger than to protect the public.
Unnecessary police intervention, by definition, produces the possibility of
conflict where none need exist.


Contrary to the Commonwealth's view, the public will receive its full
measure of protection by police who act within the restraints imposed on them
by Art. I, § 8 of the Constitution of Pennsylvania and this court's relevant
caselaw. Upon receiving unverified information that a certain person is
engaged in illegal activity, the police may always observe the suspect and
conduct their own investigation. If police surveillance produces a reasonable
suspicion of criminal conduct, the suspect may, of course, be briefly stopped
and questioned (the Terry investigative stop), and, if the officer has
reasonable fear for his safety, police may pat down the suspect's outer
garments for weapons.5

In this case, the police acted on an anonymous tip and had no basis for
believing that the tip was reliable. They also had no independent reason to
believe that the suspect may have been involved in criminal activity. But
Queen requires that "a stop and frisk may be supported by a police radio
bulletin only if evidence is offered at the suppression hearing establishing
the articulable facts which support the reasonable suspicion." 536 Pa. at 320,
___ A.2d at ___. Here, no facts were offered which supported the suspicion
created by the anonymous call. The judgment of sentence must, therefore, be
reversed.

Emphasis added.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Caution:
This summary is meant for general purposes only. Firearm laws frequently change and the following answers may not reflect changes in the laws.
State Requirements: Rifles, Shotguns and Handguns:
Rifles and Shotguns

* Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No
* Registration of rifles and shotguns? No
* Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No
* Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No

Handguns

* Permit to purchase handgun? No
* Registration of handguns? No
* Licensing of owners of handguns? No
* Permit to carry handguns? Yes

Purchase:
It is unlawful to sell, give, lend or deliver a handgun to any person under 18, or to a person whom the seller has reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a crime of violence, is a drug addict, a habitual drunkard, or of unsound mind.
Possession:

* No state permit is required to possess a rifle, shotgun, or handgun.

* Law enforcement authorities have advised that minors cannot carry or possess a handgun.

* It is unlawful for any person to have in his possession, or on his person, or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place, or within 1,000 feet of a demonstration after being warned by a police officer.

* It is unlawful to possess, sell, or use a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun.

Carrying:

* It is unlawful to carry a concealed pistol, firearm, or airgun without a permit.

* It is unlawful to carry a rifle or shotgun walking cane.

* No person shall carry a pistol in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person, except on his land, in his own home or fixed place of business, without a license.

* Exempt from this prohibition are law enforcement officers, common carriers, and persons carrying unloaded handguns in a secure wrapper from a place of purchase to one’s home or business, or to or from a place of repair, or in moving from one home or business to another.

Concealment:
A license to conceal carry firearms does not authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into:

* Any airport, courthouse or any other public building that specifically prohibits firearms.

* Any city, state and federal facilities.

* Any public gatherings such as sporting events, political events, parades, etc.

The sheriff of a county may, upon the application of any person residing In that county, issue a qualified or unlimited license to carry a handgun in a vehicle or concealed on or about one's person for not more than one year if the applicant:

* Is 21 years of age.

* Has good reason to fear injury to his person or property.

* Has any other proper reason for carrying a handgun.

* "Is a suitable person" to be so licensed.

The sheriff may revoke a license upon proof that the license holder is "not a proper person to be licensed." The fee for a license varies, depending on the county.
Non-Residents:
A person who is not a resident of Alabama and who is licensed to carry a handgun in any state whose laws recognize and give effect in that state to a license issued under the laws of Alabama shall be authorized to carry a handgun in Alabama. Such a person shall carry the handgun in compliance with the laws of Alabama.
Antiques and Replicas:
Handguns possessed as curiosities or ornaments are exempt from the provisions on purchase, possession, or sale. Such handguns may be transported unloaded and in a bag, box, or securely wrapped package, but not concealed on the person. The same provisions apply to handguns, rifles, or shotguns made in or before 1898, or to blackpowder replicas not made to fire fixed ammunition.
Miscellaneous:
No county or municipal corporation or its political subdivision shall regulate in any manner gun shows, the possession, ownership, transport, carrying, transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, registration or use of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, firearms dealers, or dealers in firearm components.

* It is unlawful to change or obliterate the name of the maker, model, manufacturer’s number, or other mark or identification of any firearm. It is unlawful to possess, sell or use such a firearm.

* It is unlawful to make any loan secured by a mortgage, deposit, or pledge of a handgun.

* It is unlawful to supply false information or evidence in purchasing or otherwise securing delivery of a pistol, or in applying for a license to carry a handgun.

* It is unlawful to possess or sell brass or steel teflon-coated handgun ammunition, or any ammunition of like kind designed to penetrate bulletproof vests. This prohibition does not apply to teflon-coated lead or brass ammunition designed to expand upon contact.

* It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm within any wildlife management area without a "permit allowing this privilege."

* It is a misdemeanor to hunt with a center-fire rifle, a shotgun using a slug or shot larger in diameter than standard four shot, or a .40 caliber or larger muzzle-loading rifle, within 50 yards of a public road, public highway, or railroad by anyone other than the landowner or his or her immediate family.

* It is unlawful to discharge any firearm upon or across any public road, public highway or railroad.


bold part is mine
and our young hero of the revolution was obviously aware as he makes a point of seeking agreement from the other folks at the end of his own tape. "we aren't demonstrating we are just "assembling"
seems like he was looking for some kinda action and a bit miffed he was denied. he looks young to me

 

[armsmaster270]

If the cameraman was breaking the law he would be in the back of the Squad Car. The officer was seasoned enough that he should have been aware of a common firearm carry law.

 

[donato]

Does the gentleman from Pennsylvania have the section of law on carrying to public gatherings in that state - obviously open carry is permitted based on recent news. My concern is for concealed carry.

Thanks.

Now if we all really knew the guns laws like we should, we'd all be so much better off - especially LEOs. If so, neither side/person in a situation like shown in this video would be so inclined to get so bent out of shape - this video situation could have been resolved in a non-confrontational manner.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Some of you have missed the point along the way regarding life in this land of liberty. Without a genuine reasonable suspicion, or probable cause of a crime, the "authorities" are to regard all of us as "innocent until proven guilty", and we are supposed to be FREE to assemble, worship, speak, bear arms, etc. All of that is supposed to come free of harassment, and free of obligation toward identitiy. To withhold identity ensures that the government, or anyone for that matter, cannot persecute (don't confuse this with prosecute) you. There (in most cases) are no laws requiring you to identify yourself for these freedoms of assembly, bearing arms, etc. A cop has authority within the scope of his job, period. If he is NOT investigating a crime, or acting within his duties, his scope of intrusion into your privacy is very limited....that is why he doesn't carry blank search warrants already signed by judges so that he can fill in your name when he wants to. As stated above, if we do not keep exercising ALL rights, they will be infringed. It is wise to let all police refresh their memory as to how far they can, and should, intrude.

 

[General Geoff]

Does the gentleman from Pennsylvania have the section of law on carrying to public gatherings in that state - obviously open carry is permitted based on recent news. My concern is for concealed carry.

There is no law in Pennsylvania barring carry to a public gathering or demonstration. An LTCF (license to carry firearms) is required to carry either concealed, in a vehicle, or in Philadelphia (or a combination of the three). This is why the quoted case law refers to "licensed gun," since that case pertained specifically to a defendant who had a handgun either concealed or carried in Philadelphia.


Furthermore, just as it is unlawful to stop a motorist just to ask for a driver's license (without evidence or suspicion of a moving or equipment violation), it is unlawful to stop gun-carrying pedestrian just to ask for his LTCF, without evidence or suspicion of some other crime.

 

[Mousegun]

A LEO sargent with that many hash marks on his arm (X years of service for each mark) should know the law like his name.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

north carolina law

4. Events Occurring In Public Places
North Carolina law further makes it unlawful for any person participating in,
affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line,
or demonstration upon any public place, owned or under the control of the State of
North Carolina, or any of its political subdivisions, to willfully or intentionally possess,
or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-277.2
Persons exempted from the provisions of N.C.G.S. § 14-269(b) are not bound by this
prohibition. These persons are set forth in Paragraph III. A. of this publication. A
concealed handgun permit does not allow a permittee to carry a weapon in these areas.
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-415.11(c)

 

[donato]

dressedman,

Well, if a LEO knows the law, he will know whether to intervene or not. Even the recent US Supreme Court decison does not give the absolute right to us to do whatever we feel like in regards to carrying a gun.

General,

Thanks

mouse,
Correct! Especially re. firearms

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

so where exactly were they standing?

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/assembly/topic.aspx?topic=buffer_zones

 

[TexasRifleman]

so where exactly were they standing?

The actual law says:

by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction,
intentionally injures, intimidates or interferes with or attempts
to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person because that
person is or has been, or in order to intimidate such person or
any other person or any class of persons from, obtaining or
providing reproductive health services;

Are you saying that the mere presence of a legally carried and holstered firearm now constitutes "threat of force" to someone trying to enter the place?

Gonna have a hard time applying FACE to this incident I think.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Eventually, the federal district court issued an injunction against the protesters, prohibiting them, with the exception of two sidewalk counselors, from demonstrating within 15 feet of abortion-clinic entrances and driveways and within 15 feet of vehicles and patients entering or leaving a clinic. The provision prohibiting protesters within 15 feet of fixed physical locations (abortion clinics) was called a fixed buffer zone, while the provision prohibiting them within 15 feet of moving objects (cars or people) was called a floating buffer zone.


thats the fed law


this is the nc law that seems to be avoided
North Carolina law further makes it unlawful for any person participating in,
affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line,
or demonstration upon any public place, owned or under the control of the State of
North Carolina, or any of its political subdivisions, to willfully or intentionally possess,
or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-277.2

 

[longdayjake]

Cops are NOT your friend. Never, ever.

Sure...Cops never do anything good in this world. In fact, the world would be a better place if there were no one to enforce the law. I'll go as far as saying that laws are not your friend. Never, ever. They are so burdensome and restrictive.

Dude, you need to step off the paranoia bandwagon. Most cops are good guys and they just want to help keep people safe. Sure there are plenty that let their authority get to their head, but many of them really try hard to be fair to everyone. Trust me, it is not easy to be nice to everyone you meet when almost everyone you meet is causing a problem of some kind or another. That said, the cop in the video way over reacted, but the kid had it coming. Any time you approach a cop who isnt even talking to you and you are wearing a gun you should expect to get a good tounge lashing. The kid was trying to start something. One thing I think we should remember when dealing with law enforcement is that they are often just as paranoid as we are of them. They live every day knowing that for many people they have a target painted on them.

This situation could have been avoided had the guy with the gun simply minded his own business and stayed where he was instead of approaching a potentially dangerous situation. Cops don't like being surrounded by a bunch of people and especially not by someone with a gun. Its gonna get his blood pumping. My bet is that he didn't want to be there but he got called there by some pro abortion advocate screaming about some terrorist radicals.

Now, that cop did several stupid things. First he demanded a permit that doesn't exist. Second he demanded a license. Third he stood there with his hands in his pockets next to a guy with a gun. Fourth, he repeatedly turned his back to someone armed that he just had an argument with. Had he just kept his cool and let the situation unfold rather than trying to force it in some crazy direction there would have been no issue at all.

Dumb cop and dumb citizen that should have avoided the situation.

 

[MT GUNNY]

The funny thing is that Officer never did Continue the conversation with the the people he was originally talking to. He was totally distracted, and dam near pulled his own Pistol! That is Scary!

 

[donato]

Some of the people on this forum (and others) are Scary too.

 

[General Geoff]

Sure...Cops never do anything good in this world. In fact, the world would be a better place if there were no one to enforce the law. I'll go as far as saying that laws are not your friend. Never, ever. They are so burdensome and restrictive.

The cops ARE NOT your friends, at least not in an official capacity. They are there to enforce the law first, then maybe help people second.


Keep in mind that it is not a prerequisite that you be someone's friend, in order to have their best interests at heart. My father is not my friend. I still love, admire and respect him. My boss is not my friend. I still respect him and get along with him, and do what he asks.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The cops ARE NOT your friends, at least not in an official capacity. They are there to enforce the law first, then maybe help people second.

Absolutely.

Cops do many good things in the world there is no doubt, but when a cop is asking you questions you are dealing with not just that cop but the entire criminal justice system which may not have your interests in mind at all.

The cop in a case like this is not really an individual from the perspective of "the system". Whether he's a nice guy or not doesn't really come into it.

Always remember Miranda: "ANYTHING you say can be used against you".

Be mindful of your rights as a citizen of this country. Anything less is, quite frankly, unpatriotic.

 

[longdayjake]

The cops ARE NOT your friends, at least not in an official capacity

True dat.

However, I have several friends that are cops. And I met all of them while they were acting in their "official capacity." I guess it could all come down to how you define friend.

 

[LowEx]

Relevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCTEyutQQ18

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWnbsxBmyjM

The first video is probably how the Video in OP's post should have gone.

He's open carrying in both of these videos. He open carries A LOT and always video tapes. This is in New Hampshire.

Check out some of his other videos for similar stuff.

WARNING: He's a goofy, crazy guy. He encounters the police so often I have to wonder if he isn't *looking* for them. He's an activist for these things, so expect all that you might imagine. Good source for lawful, reasonable open carry encounters by an informed and responsible citizen, however.

Misc other odd videos. I bet some have been posted before.

 

[General Geoff]

However, I have several friends that are cops. And I met all of them while they were acting in their "official capacity." I guess it could all come down to how you define friend.

A friend can be a cop. A cop cannot be a friend.

The individual has to balance these two priorities. If a person who is a cop honestly considers you a friend, that necessarily creates a conflict of interest, since being a friend means (among other things) you care about someone, and have their best interests at heart. Being a cop means (among other things) you are charged with enforcing the law, regardless of an individual's best interests. So the cop has to consciously make a decision every time he observes you breaking any petty law. He can be your friend, and let it slide, or he can be a cop, and cite you. A cop who cites all his friends for any criminal conduct, however slight, which takes place around him, soon finds he has no friends at all.

 

[longdayjake]

He can be your friend, and let it slide, or he can be a cop, and cite you. A cop who cites all his friends for any criminal conduct, however slight, which takes place around him, soon finds he has no friends at all.
__________________

Ahhh. Now we are defining cop. Lets be careful not to turn this thread into a discussion about Les Miserables.

That reminds me. Now that you mention it, I have been stopped before and once they notice who they stopped they let me go.