so you shot a dog.. now what?

[ChillyW]

AB explained that the dog was in no way attacking or menacing and you went on to explain why you thought that you would still have the right to kill the dog and how you could just lie about it if the facts didn't actually play in your favor.

How's that again? My original post, in which I justify why I think it's okay to defend yourself against a dog that attacks you, is post #27, which I posted at 9:15pm Feb. 22nd, as a response to ArmedBear's post #5 .

ArmedBear's post, in which he talks about a dog that just happens by, is post #56, which was posted at 6:10pm yesterday, the 23rd. I'm not sure how I was supposed to take into account a post that happened after mine. That would be a pretty neat trick.

And as for this:

Today 07:57 PM
joab Quote:
Yes, that would be true.

And NO it would not be true one crime does not nullify another.

That's not what I said. I said that it would be true that you would have to lie to get off, *if* the dog hadn't actually attacked you. I was agreeing with what you said.

Actually, in some cases one crime does nullify another. Not in this case, as far as I know.

 

[old4x4]

I whumped an uncollared Rottweiller who was chasing deer thru crusty snow. I know, I watched the doe come thru first, breaking thru the top layer, then the f@#*ing dog (running on top of the snow) after the deer. I whistled and the thing raised it's hackles and turned towards me. I single 240 gr HP from a Contender .444 Marlin ended things )lengthwise). Made a mess on the snow, but it disappeared. I knew of the scumbags that owned it and never hunted there again. They were well known poachers, drug dealers, and had county officials in their pockets. The doe got away
I had no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[joab]

How's that again? My original post, in which I justify why I think it's okay to defend yourself against a dog that attacks you, is post #27, which I posted at 9:15pm Feb. 22nd, as a response to ArmedBear's post #5 .

The post I commented on was your post #78, which is evidenced by the fact that I highlighted it above my response, which was a challenge to this statement by ArmedBear

But if, in fact, the dog had just happened by and not hurt anything or anyone, the man would have been charged with all the crimes you listed.

Which is evidenced by the fact that you highlighted it above your post.

Go back to post #78 it's possible that you highlighted the wrong quote

 

[Meplat]

I could fill the court with witnesses who would testify that my dog wouldn't bite you. And I would.

Yeah. They do that all the time here when Jr. is caught manufacturing meth or one of the guys on the corner "caps a customer". Doesn't cut much slack then, either. Meaningless. Hell's bells, even Charlie Manson had character witnesses.

If you can't ride faster than a dog (apart from a whippet or greyhound, which tend not to even notice you, to say nothing of bite) then perhaps you should sell your mountain bike.

Three heart attacks, congestive heart failure, and a cardio who insists I walk for excercise. Next bunkem?

But then again, I know when and when not to be afraid of dogs. I don't much care if they bite, either, as long as they don't hurt me.

If a pit or any large dog for that matter bites you, it's gonna hurt you. Next bumkem?

Ignorance is no excuse to go shooting everything you see. But if you know the dog is really going to tear you apart, then of course you need to defend yourself. It doesn't sound like you have a clue about dog behavior, though, and that would come out clearly in court when I sued you for mental anguish, which would only happen after you were convicted for shooting in the city limits, among other things.

The post I saw said "dog coming after you...no way to outrun him...no where to go..." All of these things add up to "self defense". Heard of too many people killing burglars in town and then being charged with shooting in city limits?

Mental anguish? Good luck. The counter would be the same if you had an off leash dog attack me, and I'd have clear cut evidence- time, date and all - courtesy of the reading from my internal defibrillator. You'd have your...err...well...nothing.

It's a mixed bag. Get educated, or get along down the street.

I will get along down my street at my pace, thanks.

 

[748]

Use a knife, It would raise no question there was nothing else you could do.
No question the dog came at you.
Plus it would be more fun and make for a better story.

 

[Meplat]

In the case of a dog that I absolutely had to shoot, I would hope to let him bite me pretty good first. I heal up real quick, have been dog bit before and will be again. It's not that big a deal. If I had to shoot the dog to rescue another person, I would not wait until the person was bit but probably would try to place myself between the victim and the dog, sustain the injuries and then shoot the dog.

Sounds like a perfectly sane plan to me - not.

NO ONE is under the requirement to be physically injured to practice self defense. The post mentioned a pit bull...a large, powerful animal.

If you are not required to actually let a human attacker cut you, stab you, club you or shoot you in order to mount a sucessful legal self defense defense, what the heck makes you think a DOG deserves better treatment?

Bottom line...if you don't want your large dog shot, keep him out of the general public while unrestrained.

Amazes me that some of the same folks who are such staunch supporters of keeping your weapons (firearms) under "control" are so cavalier about a potential weapon with a mind of it's own roaming free.

 

[joab]

I heal up real quick, have been dog bit before and will be again. It's not that big a deal.

I would respectfully submit that you have never been really bitten.

I am fond of saying that I have been bitten 23 times. and I have been nipped and charged many many more times than that,
The 23 are bites that actually drew blood.
I have only been really bitten about 5 times, the last one took almost a year to heal, the bite to my wrist about ten years ago still limits the use of my hand, one required about 20 stitches and some area left open to drain on hot days when I have to do strenuous work it's hard to sit on the scar and I still feel a ripping sensation sometimes and that one was almost 20 years ago.
I also have some minor nerve damage from a Wolf hybrid.

Dog bite are a big deal and the older and slower healing you get or the younger and more defenseless you are the bigger the deal gets.

 

[Stand_Watie]

...I would respectfully submit that you have never been really bitten.

I am fond of saying that I have been bitten 23 times. and I have been nipped and charged many many more times than that, The 23 are bites that actually drew blood. I have only been really bitten about 5 times

I'm happy to say I've never been really bitten by a dog myself. Plenty of nips and blood drawings, but never had a dog that really wanted to do substantial damage actually get a good hold on me - now I have been really bitten by an eight or ten pound housecat and that was bad enough to convince me that any dog could do serious injury - although if I'm being attacked by a chijuajua or a weiner dog I'm going to try the 'punt' and 'stomp' options before I start shooting.

 

[Meplat]

I'm happy to say I've never been really bitten by a dog myself. Plenty of nips and blood drawings, but never had a dog that really wanted to do substantial damage actually get a good hold on me - now I have been really bitten by an eight or ten pound housecat and that was bad enough to convince me that any dog could do serious injury - although if I'm being attacked by a chijuajua or a weiner dog I'm going to try the 'punt' and 'stomp' options before I start shooting.

Yip-yap? No problem for me. Boot 'em every time. No need for heavy artillary or a dead companion animal. As I said, been a dog person all my life. Did have to nail a couple when I was raising rabbits comercially, and they were sneaking in the barn and pulling the legs off of the rabbits through the cage wire. I was sickened by it every time, but those four hundred rabbits represented food on my family's table and money in our wallets.

That being said, the only time my daughter (vet major) has ever been bitten by ANY dog, it's been a "weiner" dog. For some reason, they just hate her. First time was when she was about five...damn little dog tore her left hand all to hell. Belonged to a friend of mine who was standing there when it happened. He pulled the dog (literally - it was attached to my daughter's hand) off, and it latched on again. By the time he got it off the second time, I had gotten there, and Ray Guy woulda been proud of that punt. Dog was rattled, but remarkably unhurt. Friend was gonna shoot it, but I wouldn't let him. First time the dog had ever bitten ANYONE. (So much for the courtroom full of "character witnesses" from another poster). Took forty stitches to close the lacerations, and a long time on antibiotics to get her past the infection.

Next time was by a neighbor's weiner dog. Latched onto her leg, and broke the skin, though not seriously, through her jeans.

Third time was the second weiner dog's SON. Same thing, broken skin through her jeans.

She now calls daschounds "dogs from hell". I don't think I'd want to take my weiner dog to her when she does get a shingle. lol Not sure she'd accept it, and if she did, I sure wouldn't want to leave it overnight.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Use a knife, It would raise no question there was nothing else you could do.
No question the dog came at you.
Plus it would be more fun and make for a better story.

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously. How hell is stabbing a dog fun?

I would like to formally submit this freak be banned. This is The High Road, and as such hardly seems like the place for people who get their kicks from stabbing dogs.

 

[Meplat]

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously. How hell is stabbing a dog fun?

I would like to formally submit this freak be banned. This is The High Road, and as such hardly seems like the place for people who get their kicks from stabbing dogs.

Found that one a wee bit off kilter too.

 

[lwaldron]

This Reminds Me Of...

About a thousand years ago, I lived in Houston. Back then, there was a radio station there that went by the call letters KPFT.
Well, the station still exists, but I understand nowadays it's gone completely off the deep-end. Back then, it was only in the middle part of the swimming pool.
Anyway, they had a radio-cart they'd play late on Saturday nights, while their core listeners were thoroughly... uh, well, thoroughly enjoying whatever substance it was that they enjoyed. (A "radio-cart" refers to a cartridge of tape, just a few seconds long, that a DJ pops into a little machine, and plays for a certain effect. Think: Sean Hannity playing that comedy stuff whenever he talks about Ted Kennedy.)
Moving along now, KPFT had a cart that featured a very calm baritone voice saying, "You've just backed over your boss' dog... and you're comfortable... with KPFT's extraneous music."
Maybe you had to be there.

 

[MillCreek]

As a long-term mountain biker who happens to live in hilly terrain up here in the Seattle area, I can assure you that many of us cyclists cannot outrun a dog when we are grinding our way up a long steep hill. On the flat or downhill, very likely. But on so many of my rides, it seems like it is uphill both ways!

 

[Lupinus]

Use a knife, It would raise no question there was nothing else you could do.
No question the dog came at you.
Plus it would be more fun and make for a better story.

Yeah, the stiches and massive healing time cause of infection would be real fun. I don't agree with people who say a knife isn't going to work on a dog, but it damn sure isnt te best option and you WILL be torn up. I don't consider it "fun" to kill a dog.

 

[ChillyW]

Go back to post #78 it's possible that you highlighted the wrong quote

That is entirely possible. Let me look at that one...
Umm, no. It looks like I quoted what I meant to quote. Apparently though, I didn't actually read what it said. I respectfully submit that my post #78 was a total crock and can't stand on its own two legs. My brain must have been out of town at the time.

 

[ravencon]

Interesting post with some interesting (and a couple of deranged) responses. Many years ago I was a housing code enforcement officer and hostile canine encounters were a fairly routine occurence for me. Amazingly I was never bit. I was always able to jam my clipboard in the dogs mouth, that and a loud command usually took the fight them. If the dog's aggression level stayed the same or increased while the clipboard was jammed in their mouth I whupped the dog upside the head with an aluminum flashlight. I only had to do that a few times and, fortunately, it always worked.

In those days there was no such thing as pepper spray, in my experience Mace was completely ineffective on dogs. I was not authorized to be armed on the job but there was no express prohibition. I often carried a S&W Bodyguard. I never had to draw it on the job. The only times I came close was when dealing with really angry, hostile landlords.

 

[Cosmoline]

Since you ignored the rest of my post, let's review. The only way you can shoot my dogs is if you came onto my property or assaulted me in public, since my dogs are never off leash or off my fenced property. A responsible dog owner takes care of that first. If you did that that would be called justifiable homicide, since you cowboyed off and shot first.

That's the key element here. I've also use dogs as an early warning system, both in town and out in the sticks. If someone is fighting my dogs on my territory, it means they've already jumped a fence or kicked in a door. At that point if they're shooting my dog I treat that as imminent deadly peril to ME. It's not about saving the dog, it's about letting me kill the goblin before he kills me.

 

[joab]

Apparently though, I didn't actually read what it said. I respectfully submit that my post #78 was a total crock and can't stand on its own two legs. My brain must have been out of town at the time.

Yeah, I've never done that myself.

So it seems that both are arguments have some validity, but discussing them together is like you saying "Granny Smith's are the best apples for pies" and me saying "You're crazy, oranges have to be peeled first before you eat them"


I'm working on smart alec ways to indicate apples to oranges comparisons

 

[Biker]

That argument is settled. It's definately Granny Smith apples that make the best pie.
Biker

 

[Michael Courtney]

I could fill the court with witnesses who would testify that my dog wouldn't bite you. And I would.

Most states allow for deadly force against a dog that appears threatening to a human or to livestock. The fact that the owner can show that the dog would not actually bite is irrelevant. If a person reasonably believes that a human or livestock is threatened, it is open season on the dog.

If you can't ride faster than a dog (apart from a whippet or greyhound, which tend not to even notice you, to say nothing of bite) then perhaps you should sell your mountain bike.

Many bicyclists can outrun most dogs on flat, level ground, and wide open space and appropriate terrain to do so. However, given that the bike in question is a MOUNTAIN BIKE, which spend a good part of their time going up hills, one needs to account for the case of going up hill. Depending on the steepness of a hill, it becomes difficult for most bikers to outrun a dog while pedaling up hill. In addition, there may issues of terrain that prevent simply outrunning an aggressive canine.

But then again, I know when and when not to be afraid of dogs. I don't much care if they bite, either, as long as they don't hurt me.

I was bitten by a dog that wasn't vaccinated for rabies once. Not fun. Should we endure dog attacks until we are sure a dog hasn't been vaccinated, and then shoot?

It doesn't sound like you have a clue about dog behavior,

More of a clue than you have about cycling. The largest hospital in our county treats more human victims of dog attacks each year than victims of all human assaults combined.

Michael Courtney

 

[ConserVet]

Fluffy? Fluffy who?(working over teeth with toothpick)

Spicy sauteed dog tastes great with sweet peppers and crispy fried rice!

 

[Michael Courtney]

Not here, especially after the judge saw evidence that someone was looking forward to shooting a dog. You'd be in for deep doo-doo if you did that here, on a lot of levels, unless it was really in self-defense.

It's good that you know what an aggressive dog is. Maybe other people here do, too. Most people I meet have no CLUE what they're seeing.

The standards of self-defense center around what a reasonable man believes, not what a dog expert believes. A reasonable believes that a agressive predator chasing an person does indeed represent a threat.

Actually, in most states, the burden of proof for shooting a dog is not on the shooter, as it is when shooting a person in self-defense. In most cases, the prosecutor or plantiff will be burdened to prove that the shooting was not self-defense.

In addition, since odds are pretty good that there won't be much of an investigation into who shot fido, most shooters will likely stay out of court altogether simply by quickly leaving the scene and shutting up about it if in a public place, and by following the three S rule if on your own private land.


Michael Courtney

 

[TamThompson]

No I will not sell my mountain bike!

Armed Bear, that was ill-done to say that if the original poster couldn't outride a dog, he should sell his mountain bike.

For one thing, mountain bikes are not as fast as road bikes due to the knobby tires. For another, have you ever raced a black lab (like one of mine) on a bike? Some dogs can run quite fast.

For another, I'm a 47-year-old woman with a bad knee from 27 years of running--I may not be fast anymore, but I am entitled to ride my bike in public areas. And if a dog threatens my life, I am entitled to defend my life and limb.

 

[joab]

That argument is settled. It's definately Granny Smith apples that make the best pie.
Biker

You're an idiot, navel oranges don't even have seeds

The standards of self-defense center around what a reasonable man believes, not what a dog expert believes. A reasonable believes that a agressive predator chasing an person does indeed represent a threat.

Well said

 

[SquirrelNuts]

This has happened twice in my neighborhood. One of the times it happened to me on my front porch. I called the police about the shooting. In my opinion, my county's 911 call center is useless. I do not plan on calling for any more assistance, just to report that something happened. I called them tonight about vandilism I witnessed to my neighbor's property. This was four hours ago and they have yet to respond. I bet I could have shot all five of the kids and they would not have responded (they didn't for the last two shootings). Anyway...rant over on how crappy my 911 is.

After calling 911 after the shooting, I called animal control. They sent out an officer two hours later and he issued the owners citations for control (leash law). These dogs have a history of problems in the past, including aggressive behavior, attacking a person, and killing neighbor's pets. This was very important that there were past documented problems.

My sister-in-law is a lawyer and lost a civil suit against a dog owner whose dog attacked a young girl because there was no precedent of the dog bing aggressive. Very important.

The owner lied to animal control and said that he did not have the dogs, and he in fact had given the dogs away three weeks previous.

His dogs turned up later that night, and one had gun shot wounds. Allof a sudden, he in fact did still have the dogs and demanded that I be charged with cruelty to animals.

The animal control supervisor came out and did an investigation and found the shooting to be justified self-defense.

The owner tried to swear out a warrant before a Magistrate judge the next day...even though an investigation for the shooting had taken place, and been closed.

There were many incidents before that (including another shooting) and there have been incidents after that. It has been hell since then, and the process is very slow. I do not expect the trial for the citations the owner received to come about for another six months. The shooting occured on Saturday, August 20th, 2005 at 10:55 AM, and the arraignment (do you want to plead guilt or not guilty part) will not take place for several more weeks.

If I had to do it over again, I would have still shot the dog, or who knows what would have happened to me. There really was no thought process to it. My body took over.

I predict there will be more shootings in the neighborhood, and if the next one involves me I will call it in to report that it happened, but will not ask for officer assistance. It scares the hell out of me that 911 can receive MULTIPLE calls about MULTIPLE shooting and MULTIPLE other incidents and they make a decision not to dispatch anyone.