lbmii said:Why M4 when you can M3!
You all know you want one. Now just admit it.
Underline is mine. No mention what the SS192 does.The SS190 ammunition will incapacitate the enemy in close range combat.
The SS190 provides a virtually flat trajectory up to 200 meters, does not deform or fragment on impact, and the projectile’s tumbling action ensures a very high probability of incapacitation.
P90® submachine gun and SS190 round team up to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action.
The simple design of the mechanism, the unique feed mechanism, and the materials used to manufacture the P90® make it highly reliable, whatever the conditions.
The P90® has been designed to fire more than 20,000 rounds.
- Little to no lubrication is required
- Breech area protected from extreme environments
....
- The recoil impulse is only 1/3 of the 5.56 mm ball and 2/3 of the 9 mm ball round.
This significantly increases the controllability of the weapon
Angled how? The Sten has a magazine that protrudes to the left -- and it was often remarked how inconvenient that was.
Preacherman said:Fletchette, most pistol ammo used in subguns (e.g. 9mm., .45 ACP, etc.) is straight-walled, or nearly so. This means that magazines for that round have to be straight, to ensure reliable feeding. Bottle-nose rounds such as 7.62x39, 5.56x45, etc. naturally "curve" when stacked against spring tension, which is why their magazines curve in accordance with bullet geometry and capacity. And, since the subgun magazines were straight anyway, one couldn't really have them offset at anything other than a 90º angle to the gun, otherwise the rounds wouldn't feed properly without some intricate mechanical re-alignment during the feeding cycle to line them up with the breech.
Seriously; There are two good reasons besides the fact that most pistol-caliber rounds feed better from a vertical magazine:
-Economics. It is much cheaper to produce them that way.
-Ergonomics. Small curved magazines are harder to insert, particularly when not inserted into the grip. The MP5 and PPSh have straight sections at the top where they are inserted. The 'hand meets hand' ergonomic first used in Vaclav Holek's Cz/Vz subguns is so advantageous that Uziel Gal, Gordon Ingram, and many others adopted it for their designs.
Reliability is also a factor. extended mags for pistols (Hi-Power, Beretta 92, S&W 59 series, 1911) are prone to causing malfuntions, unless well designed, often redesigned for more rounds.
Having fired BOTH an AR15 (16") and a mossberg 590 (20") indoors without hearing protection, I'd be more likely to use the AR15. My hearing recovers quicker, I get the dial tone of course, but I can hear other things around me as well. With my mossberg, all I hear is a dialtone.rudolf said:I could compare the blast of the Mini 14 and a 18" shotgun at an indoor range with concrete walls (some indoors have sound reduction walls). I preferred the shotgun by far.
Zach S said:Having fired BOTH an AR15 (16") and a mossberg 590 (20") indoors without hearing protection, I'd be more likely to use the AR15. My hearing recovers quicker, I get the dial tone of course, but I can hear other things around me as well. With my mossberg, all I hear is a dialtone.
FWIW, at the range, where I have doubled hearing protection, and I'm surrounded by conctrete and cinderblocks, my mossberg doesnt bother me as much as the AR does.
strambo said:I think subguns are way overrated. They're just big pistols. They are the least versatile long arms. Good only in CQB, OK for short engagements 100yds or less outside of CQB scenarios, but lacking any real stopping power. At least handguns can be concealed and carried 24/7.
Carbines and shotguns have great power and work well in CQB. A shotgun w/ slugs is effective out to the max eff. range of a SMG. A carbine considerably more. Downside is overall length...but we're already talking about longarms. As far as overpenetration concerns, 5.56 ammo such as Hornady TAP or similar varmit type load penetrates less than 9mm and hits a lot harder. I haven't brought up cost and availability of subguns 'cause that doesn't relate directly to their effectiveness. I could have had an MP5 in Iraq...I kept my AK.
Fletchette said:and...
I guess I didn't phrase my question clearly. I meant "angled" as in the magazine's long axis is not perpendicular to the bore axis. For example, a Browning Hi Power pistol has a magazine angled at 17.5 degrees off of perpendicular from the bore axis, so that it fits nicely into the grip. An Uzi has a straight magazine at 90 degrees, making the grip also 90 degrees, and awkward.
One can purchase extended Glock magazines (straight, but 22 degrees off of perpendicular) that stick well below the bottom of the grip. Are these magazines not reliable? Why can't a sub-gun have a nicely angled grip to aid pointability?
Brick said:See!
And I missed another thing: How many magazines of SMG ammo can you carry for one standard assualt rifle magazine? My guess is 3. So you can 30 rounds of, let's say, .308. Well, let's throw the swing your way a little; 5.56x45. While you carry 30 of those, I can carry 90 of mine.
What about that shotgun? Oh yeah, those. What kind of weapon would you like to carry in a, say, rather tight factory. An assualt rifle? Humm, might be a little tight for that. A pistol? Well, nice for the closer zombies. (oops ) A shotgun...Similar, but not quite. How are you going to shoot across the factory from a good position accurately with a shottie?
Remember, the Army did some homework and found most engagments were under 200 yards. Right? When you're running around, how are you going to see a 1 MOA figure across the field anyway?
Let's not dismiss that you can still carry more SMG ammo than a shotgun. We assume that you don't fire full auto all the time. SMG maggies are smaller and lighter, so you can carry more of them than an assualt rifle. Besides, what difference is a rifle going to make in a half-gutted, half-collapsed building? You might have to carry your rifle hip style, but the SMG might be small enough to work your shoulder a little.
TechBrute said:How am I supposed to consider someone credible when they infer that only SWAT need lights on their guns and a lot of what they say seems to be parroting internet rumor?
rudolf said:I don't need a light on a gun. ID'ng goes many ways. If the shadow is too small, it's probably a kid. If you tell it to freeze and it yells at you, it's probably your wife. I might just turn on the room light for a moment. Ask who's there. Or use the 'normal' flashlight. But I'm not SWAT. They need a light on their gun for sure.
Artful said:You could design a gun that way but some of designs were around a pre-existing magazine, the UZI , Colt carbine use double feed developed for Berretta which is straight feed. STEN was from MP18/Lanchaster design - Sterling was designed to use it's own and STEN due to economic's. From a designer's point of view it's usually easier to use existing gun magazines with only slight modifications to work with your design.
As far as using weapons for defense I have Shotty by the bed, and a Pistol by the bed - If I have a need to shoot farther out into the park behind my place I'll use an AR or Bolt gun - the UZI is for use with MK9 for preserving quiet times.
Why the side fighting the infidel invaders in the name of Allah, of course. -hehI carried a mp5 in Irag, which side were you on ??
Having said that, some men like fat chicks (and i imagine some women like fat men) so i'm sure that someone, somplace thought have a smg would be cool.